Lodge Card Club Raided / Grand Jury does not indict any Lodge employees
Came looking for some info on this, but I guess I will kick the thread off. Anyone there at the time or know more detail
Mark is right.
To play in a game you have to go to the front desk. They ask you for your player number. If you don't have a membership you have to sign up.
They check on your membership status. If yours has expired they renew.
They then ask what games you'd like to play, they put you on the list. When your turn comes up they click a button to move you to a table. The dealer will see your name on the screen on the table and put you in the right seat. The dealer never asks if you are a member as you would never get assigned to the table without a membership.
I'm not seeing anything in the Card Player article that suggests anything truly shady was going on at Lodge.
I think there's a totally plausible argument that the entire business model of the Lodge (and many other TX card rooms) is illegal under Texas law. So maybe this is just a test case of that?...which I think is something a lot of people have been anticipating for some time.
you guys are missing the fact that they said they were never even asked if they were members - they were just allowed to play without paying the feesthat is much less an "omg they are letting people play without charging them" - which is perfectly legalit's not about that at all - it's "so where are they making millions in profit if they aren't even bothering to check if people
My guess is just good old fashioned tax evasion kinda. The owner(s) took any money they made from playing and put it into the club's account then the money was sent to a separate holding companys higher interest account to be paid out at a rate determined by ownership in the club. Like a yearly bonus then each recepient pays their own taxes on it. So, they essentially backed each other.
Probably those goddamned Adelsons trying to get rid of poker before we legalize casinos. Bastards.
The latest from PokerNews and it's not looking good:
I read the article and it does sound to me like "This is the largest poker room, let's take a shot at it."
I also wonder how the agents did when they played poker. I suspect not very well.
They collect $12/hr time in addition to any membership fees. The room has 70 tables, so running at full capacity that's about $250k/month, which is still less than the amount of transactions identified (as I suggested), although it's not clear over what operating period those transactions are associated with.
The claim seems to be that they deposited $800k in January/February. But what about:
1) Chip sales?
Does Team Serpico not understand that real players don’t always cash out every night? I’m not only talking about players carrying around a bag of large denomination chips (I have $1,500 in mine). I also keep between $2k and $10k in my player bank at my local card room and thought I was a big shot until one day while getting a thousand out the young kid next to me gets $50k out of his.
2) tournament buyins?
Does Barney Miller think this cash is buried in a soup can behind the room until players reach the money?
3) liquor sales?
4) Food sales?
5) Extra cash accumulated over biggest days of the year, the new years holidays?
I’m not even going to get into merchandise sales as it’s impossible to estimate the incredible value that Doug Polks image adds to it. But this is starting to sound a lot like a wild goose chase to shut down a business they don’t like. So far we have two pieces of evidence:
1) Local deputies with community college level education who only got hired by flunking an IQ test (true story: police departments don’t like to hire high IQ applicants), who don’t understand the businesses cash flows or maybe even accounting, somehow decide $800K was “too much” for their good old brains to comprehend.
2) one guy one time didn’t get his membership checked upon entry.
I won’t be shocked if no charges are ever actually filed and the whole thing blows over and the Lodge reopens, but not until spending a couple years in court to get their bank accounts unfrozen and after filing bankruptcy. And that the county commissioners high five the sheriff for achieving their goals despite having no actual cause.
My ex-father in law once started a successful small insurance company to offer better rates than the big guys in the state’s rural counties. He was very successful until one day the state insurance commission told him he didn’t have enough capital for the business they were writing and he was going to be shut down in 30 days and forced into liquidation and bankruptcy, unless he found a way to inject millions more in capital. He had to run around to a bunch of doctors, his investors, personally begging them for additional monies in exchange for giving up a lot of his ownership percentage, and had to liquidate all his savings, even his 401k incurring massive tax penalties, but barely got the money in time.
6 months later his appeal was heard and the state regulators admitted their calculation was incorrect, just as he had told them, and that the company was always properly capitalized. Sometimes regulators are incompetent. Sometimes they are bored, or just don’t like you. Sometimes maybe they like your much bigger competitors a lot more, so much so they end up working for them after retirement.
In the case of local sheriffs in Texas, they have a long history of harassing card rooms. They are good Christians who hate vice more than they like going after actual violent crimes with actual victims, so for them nothing is better than shaking down a hooker to give her a lengthy private body cavity search or grabbing a big old pile of cash from a motorist, or a poker room, knowing it’s going to be nearly impossible for their victims to get that cash back.
I read the article and it does sound to me like "This is the largest poker room, let's take a shot at it."
What specifically in the article makes it sound like that to you? According to the article, the TABC was approached first with someone claiming suspicious activity at the club and the investigation started after that.
My guess is just good old fashioned tax evasion kinda. The owner(s) took any money they made from playing and put it into the club's account then the money was sent to a separate holding companys higher interest account to be paid out at a rate determined by ownership in the club. Like a yearly bonus then each recepient pays their own taxes on it. So, they essentially backed ea
The owners almost certainly either had their own personal accounts in the player bank system, and/or kept most of their winnings there, or just kept the high value chips they won in a box somewhere, and were slow to cash them in. Which is very natural, normal part of poker, but significantly increases the amount deposited because someone had to give the Lodge cash to buy those chips or find their player bank accounts.
As far as you thinking they played in a shared bankroll and paid each other interest, that’s just something silly your little brain made up without evidence.
What specifically in the article makes it sound like that to you? According to the article, the TABC was approached first with someone claiming suspicious activity at the club and the investigation started after that.
Come on. Cops invent or create informants all the time in order to do whatever they please, and in this case they probably didn’t even need to as every Poker Bro thinks something shady is going on because they are best player ever but don’t win every single day. “Suspicious” is a general term that’s not a specific description of probable cause that a crime is being committed.
Come on. Cops invent or create informants all the time in order to do whatever they please, and in this case they probably didn’t even need to as every Poker Bro thinks something shady is going on because they are best player ever but don’t win every single day. “Suspicious” is a general term that’s not a specific description of probable cause that a crime is being committed.
Don't disagree, but the TABC agents attested to this on an affidavit for a search warrant - if they lied then they committed a felony.
Come on. Cops invent or create informants all the time in order to do whatever they please, and in this case they probably didn’t even need to as every Poker Bro thinks something shady is going on because they are best player ever but don’t win every single day. “Suspicious” is a general term that’s not a specific description of probable cause that a crime is being committed.
seems they knew what to look for based on what the informant told them about giant deposits. this doesnt mean the informant wasn't also clueless about all the legal ways massive amounts of money can come into a casino in big lumps. Explaining how a casino works to non casino people is almost impossible at times. A high power attorney in LA was backed off for banking UTH (i got him to team with me because i knew he would freak out when we got backed off), as attorneys do he was happy to sue the casino for violations of the law. I and others were pretty excited when he told us this. After he tried to explain it to his partner he gave up, he said the way the law was written and trying to explain what was going on to laymen would have been an insane amount of work for no payoff. Now the indian casinos have done it and it has taken them years and probably millions in legal fees but they get a VERY BIG payoff at the end.
Don't disagree, but the TABC agents attested to this on an affidavit for a search warrant - if they lied then they committed a felony.
Come on, even if they lied on the affidavit they aren’t ever getting charged. Even if defendants can catch them in the lie, the DA will say it was an “inadvertent mistake” because he doesn’t want to strain relations with the department and the union, and judge will let it slide to avoid having the police union come after them next election.
We’ve seen similar excuses made over and over again by local DAs, or if heat gets too much, they’ll punt it to a secret grand jury where they can present it just favorably for the police without any oversight, even neglecting to present the most damning evidence.
Lastly, they don’t have to lie. As I said they can just take vague statements from unhappy players and trump that into a Casus belli.
Read it more carefully as a lawyer might. Doesn’t actually say he played wo proving membership. Says he was in the club wo membership. I thought you had to have a card to even sit. Note I have never played at Lodge so that is based on what I heard.
He might have had to get a card later after being in club for awhile but before he sat.
This depending on actual facts and closer reading of the code, could be WAY WAY mor3 than a nothing burger. It gets straight to one of the big questions. Is the room a private place. Obv. You need to be a member when you go to play for the space to have any chance at being private. But can you be present in the space, not playing but using other amenities as a non member? How long? Etc.
It isn’t about if the membership is free, that may or may not matter would have to read the associated definition. It is what c4iteria if any does membership have. What kind of criteria do the regs require?
It becomes similar to piercing the corporate veil. Once any part of the veil is pierced even accidentally, all kinds of issues pop out.
seems they knew what to look for based on what the informant told them about giant deposits. this doesnt mean the informant wasn't also clueless about all the legal ways massive amounts of money can come into a casino in big lumps.
Yes, if they have specific informants who attested to the Lodge bending reporting rules for whales, and those informants were in a position to know, then they have a basis for an investigation.
But I didn’t read anything like that, instead I read that cops (who are statistically dumber than the average person) thought $800k was a lot of money to be deposited in a poker rooms accounts over two months. That is NOT a reasonable basis for an investigation unless you also somehow have detailed knowledge of all its cash flows from every product and service it offers. Which they don’t and can’t.
Explaining how a casino works to non casino people is almost impossible at times. A high power attorney in LA was backed off for banking UTH (i got him to team with me because i knew he would freak out when we got backed off), as attorneys do he was happy to sue the casino for violations of the law. I and others were pretty excited when he told us this. After he tried to explain it to his partner he gave up, he said the way the law was written and trying to explain what was going on to laymen would have been an insane amount of work for no payoff. Now the indian casinos have done it and it has taken them years and probably millions in legal fees but they get a VERY BIG payoff at the end.
Yes, this is truth.
They don't have to ask if you are a member. When you clock in at the table it checks to see if your membership is current or not. He must have been current or they wouldn't have dealt him cards. At least that's how it is at every place I've played. I haven't played at the Lodge, but can't imagine it being any different.
Read more carefully. Says he was not told had to be member to be in the room. Doesn’t say he was able to play as a non-member. This gets to the question if the membership grants space entry which would be one private space criterion vs membership required to enter a game. The latter would likely not meet criteria to qualify as a private space.
Since this is is all at least second hand, we don’t know precisely what was said or what occurred. Those details matter greatly.
I admit I incorrectly use the word informant in one of my posts, according to the article, they reference a confidential report. Which could simply be an anonymous tip somebody submitted on their website. TABC is a regulatory agency and their bar for opening an investigation is very low.
Read it more carefully as a lawyer might. Doesn’t actually say he played wo proving membership. Says he was in the club wo membership. I thought you had to have a card to even sit. Note I have never played at Lodge so that is based on what I heard.He might have had to get a card later after being in club for awhile but before he sat.This depending on actual facts and clos
lol at “piercing the corporate veil” coming from people who understand even less about the law than I do.
Common Factors Used to Pierce the Veil:
Commingling of Funds: Mixing personal and business accounts, or using business assets for personal expenses.
Failure to Follow Corporate Formalities: Not holding annual meetings, keeping minutes, or maintaining proper corporate records.
Under-Capitalization: Knowingly starting or operating a business without sufficient capital or insurance to cover potential liabilities.
Fraud or Injustice: Using the corporation to mislead creditors, conceal assets, or commit unlawful acts.
Alter Ego/Domination: The corporation is merely an instrument of the owner's personal business, not a separate, functional entity.
Forgetting to card someone doesn’t “pierce the veil”. It shouldn’t even cost you your license. If forgetting to card one person one time was enough to strip a casino of its gambling license or a bar of its alcohol license we wouldn’t have any casinos or bars left. It’s a fine, the license is typically only at risk only if it’s done repeatedly and a lack of controls is demonstrated without demonstrating strong efforts to prevent reoccurrence.
It doesn't say the guy didn't have a membership, it says they didn't ASK him if he has a membership. They don't have to ask because the Poker Atlas machine at the table is going to tell the dealer if he doesn't have a current membership and they won't let him play.
Does the Lodge have any non poker amenities? Darts? Shuffle board? Chess? Or even a nice “club”? Can you access these wo a membership? Card? Was the agent able to wo active membership? Heck, since they are a TABC licensed establishment, is membership required to access the bar? What are the requirements as spelled out in the code?
Mark is right.To play in a game you have to go to the front desk. They ask you for your player number. If you don't have a membership you have to sign up.They check on your membership status. If yours has expired they renew. They then ask what games you'd like to play, they put you on the list. When your turn comes up they click a button to move you to a table. The dealer will
But to meet the private place exception, can a non member just be wandering around partaking of the non poker amhenities? Have not applicable read the definition of private place but I doubt unlimited wandering meets them.
I admit I incorrectly use the word informant in one of my posts, according to the article, they reference a confidential report. Which could simply be an anonymous tip somebody submitted on their website. TABC is a regulatory agency and their bar for opening an investigation is very low.
This is very frightening.
Justice is the application of proportional punishment for committing crimes or bad acts. In this case The Lodge is receiving a massive financial punishment before it’s even been charged, or any evidence presented of its crimes or failures. Before it’s had an opportunity to present any defense, or have an impartial judge rule on its guilt or innocence.
And if 8 months from now they decide there were no crimes worth charging over the Lodge will never get any compensation.
The US criminal justice system and regulatory systems are both getting worse not better. This isn’t an isolated occurrence, anyone whose had cash confiscated by cops without being charged with any crime knows this. But regulators are even worse, feeling they can shut down a business just on their suspicions without any due process is their norm.
Imagine if the FAA decided that suspicious **** was happening at Boeing, and decided to freeze its accounts for a few years until they could sort out whether any crimes or infractions actually occurred.
The claim seems to be that they deposited $800k in January/February. But what about:1) Chip sales? Does Team Serpico not understand that real players don’t always cash out every night? I’m not only talking about players carrying around a bag of large denomination chips (I have $1,500 in mine). I also keep between $2k and $10k in my player bank at my local card room and thought
Might want to dig deeper. AFAIK no local LE was involved. It was state (TABC for sure, maybe state police) and feds (at least IRS). This wasn’t cousin bubba getting back at Doug for standing up his half-sister/cousin.
Come on, even if they lied on the affidavit they aren’t ever getting charged. Even if defendants can catch them in the lie, the DA will say it was an “inadvertent mistake” because he doesn’t want to strain relations with the department and the union, and judge will let it slide to avoid having the police union come after them next election. We’ve seen similar excuses made over
All that is certainly possible but it seems to me the simplest explanation is the TABC received a tip and simply followed up on it, just as the affidavit states. The alternative explanation requires quite a bit of shenanigans to be plausible.
Come on. Cops invent or create informants all the time in order to do whatever they please, and in this case they probably didn’t even need to as every Poker Bro thinks something shady is going on because they are best player ever but don’t win every single day. “Suspicious” is a general term that’s not a specific description of probable cause that a crime is being committed.
Since TABC absolutely does not need any PC or complaint to investigate and inspect any TABC licensed establishment, why would they invent an informant? This could later be used against them if they can’t produce him or evidence of him.
When you get a liquor license one condition is you will allow inspections and investigations on demand or without any inform. No probable cause or warrants needed. Now once they choose to proceed criminally, those rules change. Thus why they brought a warrant but until then TABC free to perform inspections and investigations wrt compliance with license conditions,
Then add in TABC is also the body in TX to investigate illegal gambling because that is also a license violation, they had absolutely no need for an informant.
Just a couple of things. Gambling establishments get special attention from FinCen because they are a cash business. The biggest poker room in TX is going to be top of the list to be looked at and FinCen isn't going to just let things slide. Next, the transactions listed in the report would a require a CTR filed each time they move the money. In their minds, it may have been just moving money around, but the organizations are different which means the report has to be filed. My guess is they failed to do this.
Therefore, they are at best guilty of sloppy procedures and will have to pay some hefty fines. An even decent outcome is that they will lose the business.
