Calling until you pickup
1/3/6 9 handed.
Game is getting later in the night and V just sat down. 50's guy. Seems very gambly but maybe not a complete maniac. When this hand took place we only had 1-2 orbits of info on the guy. Our reads at this point: 100% VPIP. Donks almost every flop, cold calls 3-bets, donks even MW, not sure what it means. Calling when faced with aggression. Covers. SB.
---Hero effective at 1.8k, LJ---
Two limps EP, H sees A♥ 4♥ to 35, V calls SB, one limper calls. 3-ways IP.
Flop 105 - 9♣ 4♠ 3♥
V donks 50, limper folds, H calls
Turn 205 - 5♦
V barrels 150, we call
River 500 - J♦
V checks.... Is this a check back or a bluff? Would you fold turn?
11 Replies
It's a disaster is what it is.
Once again....your post is missing the most important information. What in hell was your plan here?
You have this habit of posting a hand that you botched on every street and then asking what to do in a situation no competent poker player should ever be in. There is no way this exercise is going to help you improve.
limp/call preflop, peel flop for no more than $20, fold turn. If I need to explain the "WHY" behind any of that, then I'm going to change my advice to "fold pre and cash out"
One or two orbits isn't much to draw any real conclusions. He may be a maniac or he may just be getting smacked by the deck.
Preflop: I would likely limp behind if table is relatively passive and you are unlikely to face a big raise. Or fold if the table is aggressive. I don't see much of a reason to make a big raise with a weakish implied odds type hand in a spot where you're usually getting called and going multiway, oftentimes without position.
Flop: As played calling is probably standard facing a less than 1/2 PSB on the flop and holding middle pair plus backdoor draws. You could potentially raise and turn your hand into a bluff now?
Turn: You should likely fold facing the larger turn bet. You now have third pair, and even though you picked up a weak gut shot, some potential flop bluffs like 65s and 76s improved to where they're beating you.
River: As played I'm probably just checking back and expecting to usually lose. His most likely hand is 9x after taking this line, but I don't know how much fold equity you would have if you bet. The BDFD completed and is somewhat unlikely to have hit you, but he's probably expecting overpairs to check back now. So you're repping a pretty narrow range if you bet, and I would expect to get called pretty light. I don't know I'm never really arriving here this way.
I think the mistakes were really preflop and calling the turn, and when you make mistakes on early streets this is what happens. You end up in no man's land with no good options.
PF is meh but not bad.
Flop I think I like a bluff raise more than call.
Turn should just be a fold.
I don't mind the turn call, vs V as described. Also don't mind the raise pf, as absurdly deep as you are.
Per a previous post of yours, determine V's buckets for different parts of their range and see what calls a b/f, raises or bluff raises, and folds.
I'm probably checking back here, unless you think 4th pair, top kicker is good. Might be? Are they going to bluff shove?
1/3/6 9 handed.
Game is getting later in the night and V just sat down. 50's guy. Seems very gambly but maybe not a complete maniac. When this hand took place we only had 1-2 orbits of info on the guy. Our reads at this point: 100% VPIP. Donks almost every flop, cold calls 3-bets, donks even MW, not sure what it means.
It means you don't know what a maniac is.
This. This guy right here. He's a complete maniac.
Sounds like a guy who isn't folding his SB to a single raise, and probably not someone we want to engage in a battle of swinging dicks if all we're holding is ace-napkin suited.
Wait, stop. You're $1.8k effective in a 1/3/6 game...that's 300 straddles, and V covers us, and you're raising this guy's SB with ace-napkin suited? Why?
I usually hate over-limping from MP, but if I was going to do it, this is the spot, and the type of hand. Over-limp, wait for the raise from the CO/BTN, this guy's call, then back-3B huge. Or wait for him to raise, then if action folds to us, click it back to shut everyone else out and get this HU and IP.
Zero percent probability this doesn't go multi-way. Better chance of my dog building a scale model of the hadron collider.
Awesome. Raise now. Click it back. Do not flat call.
Goddamitall.
What do you think happens on the turn if you flat call? I wonder if he'll bomb it.
Oh, he bombed it? This is my shocked face.
What do you think he has here?
Personally, I have no idea. That's the thing about guys who play this way. This could be almost any two card combo, which is a range that actually has a $hit-ton of hands that beat a pair of 4's.
You don't bluff-catch these guys with craptastic hands. You bluff-catch them with strong hands, and you make them fold by raising with weak hands. The two ways to beat them are A) out-hand them, and B) out-play them.
If you try to catch them bluffing with marginal hands, you're not doing either of those. You're playing their game, instead of playing yours.
Maniacs don't play to win money. They play to inflict pain. This guy doesn't give a $hlt if you snap him off when he's bombing it with air. He'll reload, or go home and beat his dog. You're just torching profits trying to catch him punting.
Question - if you check back and V rolls over 5x, will you go on tilt? What if he has 92? Will you curse yourself for not finding the courage to raise flop or bet river? What if you bet, and he snaps with 5x, or 92? Will you curse the poker gods for giving him a better hand than yours?
What size might you bet here? He hates folding any pair, but he might fold 22 or 3x here. How big do you think you need to go to get this guy to let go of 5x or better? Is there a world in which he releases 5x or better for less than a pot-sized bet?
Personally, I'd be more tilted betting $500 or more and having him snap it off than checking it back and mucking face down if he can beat a pair of 4's. I'll be slow-rolling the ever-living f**k out of him if he can't.
Really is amazing I don't have more friends. But I digress...
Would I fold turn? I would have over-limped pre. I probably would have called a raise from this guy, and maybe even someone behind us, just to play a pot in position against this guy, with the best relative position, but maybe with a higher SPR, and a lower burden of defense.
I don't care how multi-way it goes when I have A4s. We're playing to make sneaky boats and obvious nut flushes, not 27th pair, top kicker.
I might have raised flop, just to push back on him and let him know we can beat whatever whack-a$$ hand he has that donks, and he may need to re-think his life-choices if he thinks we're going to let him drag us into the degen Bingo parlor.
Yes, I would have bluffed him. Out of his goddam shoes. If he 3B the flop I'd snap muck. If he called, I'd micro-bet turn and blow him a kiss from across the table, knowing he's folding.
I'd never get to the turn the way you did. If I woke up from a roofie-fueled semi-coma and found myself there, yeah, I might have folded turn, since we don't know if an A, 4, or 2 on the river would be any help, and so we'd just be praying he checks to us on the river, no matter what it is.
Roofie-survivor doc would be thrilled to check back here.
Pretty much agree with everything GreatWhiteFish said.
Fine pre-flop
On the flop, I think it’s raise or fold
If guy is donking any two, make it 100
I might have potted the flop anyway if he checked. My strategy is usually attack early and evaluate.
If he still bets 150 on the turn, I probably sigh fold - but more than likely he will check and give me the FreeCard option.
As played, the check means weakness. This is not the kind of guy to go for a river check-raise
He’s decided that you’re not going away and has shut down. However, this guy’s hard to read and I don’t typically bluff a maniac
Check it back
Need to know some showdowns for what he's been donk betting flop with before ... if he hasn't gone to showdown yet that sucks, but this hand seems problematic to go to war with to find that information out.
Turn seems like the obvious place to give up, as all of the reasonable draws on the flop are better than your hand on the turn. So he'd have to be blasting like 64 or just complete air.
If we don't fold turn then it's because we think he's blasting super wide and it's a value call, so turning our hand into a bluff on the river would seem like a really bad idea. Maybe we can get 65 or 77 to fold river, by going insane, but who knows.
Result:
Spoiler
We check back river deciding he's probably calling and maybe sometimes trapping, V shows T9o and wins. Later we would see him donk several hands including naked FDs, gutshots and weak top pair so we feel okay about our line.
Result:
Spoiler
We check back river deciding he's probably calling and maybe sometimes trapping, V shows T9o and wins. Later we would see him donk several hands including naked FDs, gutshots and weak top pair so we feel okay about our line.
Fish don't usually check river to check fold. They're mostly checking to check-call.
Flop donks in multi-way pots tend to indicate a stronger range than flop donks in HU pots. He's going to have a lot of TP here. If we're going to try to make him fold TP, we need to start bluffing on the flop with a raise, and barrel turn. We may need to bet river too.
We don't necessarily need to go huge. We can click it back on the flop, bet half pot on turn, and 1.25x pot on the river.
If he's sticky enough to call against that line, just stop bluffing him. Don't raise cheese pre, and over-fold marginal hands when he donks, especially multi-way.
