SB play versus Steal

Not even close to enough info to answer this in any kind of meaningful way

SB flatting range is the TIGHTEST range in all of PLO

It’s legit 0-3% of range

You actually have a wider 3b range since Aces is more than 3% of a range.

Study the SB flatting range. It’s not very large but very important to play well

it makes sense a 3b range, ip or coming from sb, is wider than the worst position's cold calling range.

if it's actually 0-3%, those hands should probably be 3bet off, no? or are we talking about the same flatting range, a range worse than one that gets pure 3b?

I'm talking hands that typically (but not always) play as flats in sb versus limps and an iso: a range like qjt8 ss, t975 ds, jtt8 ss, bad kings, good queens...

i think you're handicapped by position in either scenario so the decision would be based on the preference toward a larger pot hu oop or a smaller pot mw (multiway) oop.

You’ve failed to mention what games you’re playing, how deep, etc so you’ve received 0 good advice in this thread

I assume you’re not plying 2/4+ online so Echemondo’s advice is decent but also decently far off from how you can/should be playing the SB in tons of PLO games that run every day

I’m confused by both your points

The flatting range in the SB is 0-3% against all ranges and all stakes. It might creep a bit higher the lower the rake or the higher the ante, but in general it’s the tightest range in PLO and very easy to learn because there simply aren’t that many hands you can flat.

In holdem you can have a no flat range cuz the range is so condensed and the total hands you can have there are so small that you can just simplify.

In PLO you can’t since 3% is thousands of hands.

If you’re asking what hands you can limp behind with in the SB, it’s not that much bigger but it is more, due to you already having some money invested and the higher the ante the more you can limp.

You want to limp with hands that have good connectivity and play well multi-way though.
Nut flush hands with high cards and solid rundowns basically. Double pairs are good and high pairs as well work as limp folds. Hands like KK73 can limp behind but fold to a raise.

Forgive the confusion. I am asking whether it is better to play hands you would typically flat in sb as 3bets instead, in response to late action. against a late open or a late iso, i think some traditional flats work better as 3bets in practice. I imagine the answer is almost always some degree of mixing.

When you say the range is, and correct me if i'm wrong, the top 3% of hands, I am now asking shouldn't the top 3% of hands be pure 3bets from any position facing any action?

thanks,

my question was to everyone. if someone wants to tell me what the solver says, that's great. if someone wants to tell me what they do in 10plo, fantastic. If someone has an opinion from 2/5/10 live, all the better. I would like to hear from as many players as possible.

If you are talking about 2/2 or 2/5/10 live, there is no such thing as a steal. No one is raising in late position to take the blinds.

It’s a misconception to think a solver does what it does to beat other GTO bots.

All a solver does is find the most EV line possible given the parameters set forth. That’s it.

GTO is the most EV line while remaining unexploitable. That’s it.

These are 2 different statements and it’s important to understand the difference.

So when we say GTO is xxxx, that means this is the line you should take to make the most money while making sure no matter what your opponent does, he cannot exploit you and therefore cannot get an edge vs you.

When we say a solver does xxx that means given the parameters we set, a solver will do this to maximally exploit its opponent. So if we say to a solver, our opponent is under defending his range on the flop, then a solver will bet with every hand 100% of the time because it is the most profitable line against an opponent who is under defending.

But how do we know if an opponent is under defending? How do you know if your opponent is not 3b enough from the BB or the button is opening too wide?

You don’t unless you know what the GTO baseline is. So this is why we study GTO. We understand the baseline, so we can see where our opponents are deviating, and then we exploit vs the opponents deviation.

So when people tell me, oh how do I play this spot? Well the answer is, this is how you should play it in equilibrium, and then once you notice how ur opponent is deviating, this is the exploit to maximize EV.

But we don’t just say, oh our opponent is doing X so ima do Y if we don’t even know what X or Y are supposed to be.

So to answer this question of whether our SB flats are more profitable as 3b, we need to know how our opponent is responding to 3bs. Generally the answer is no because if they were more profitable as 3b, then the solver and GTO would have made them 3bs. But if our opponent is under defending vs 3b, then yes. If they are over defending, then our highest EV hands gain more money while our lower EV hands become losers.

The gist is, know what GTO is and play as close you can to that until you can recognize over a significant sample where your opponent is deviating, and then exploit the deviation. If you have to ask what the deviation is, then you don’t have a foundational base strong enough to deviate yet.

I feel the late position player is opening/iso'ing and over defending (this might not be incorrect in practice, so maybe not over defending but in other words never folding) with a range that we are currently beating. I'm not sure if equity advantage is enough to overcome the positional disadvantage and the potential for BB or limpers to come along (although in my experience the limpers will usually not limp/call a 3b unless there are say 2 limpers and the BB starts the calling chain with a hand like 8756 ds that does fine against the late position player and the sb alone.)

Perhaps steal was the wrong term to use. I thought it was synonymous with a late position raise. Please forgive the confusion.

We completely understand the situation you’re facing — these marginal hands (not pure 3-bets) in the SB versus late position, especially with limpers involved, are very common and quite complex spots in PLO. There’s no universal answer here, since the EV of 3-betting vs flatting depends on many factors: positions, player tendencies, stack depths, rake, and how well different hand classes realize their equity both heads-up and multiway.

This is exactly what we focus on in our service. We do detailed hand and full database analysis to identify where EV is being lost in these spots and how to adjust your strategy — whether that’s more aggressive isolation or a more controlled approach in multiway pots.

We also have a dedicated thread where you can read reviews of our work:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/290/c...

If you’re interested, we can take a look at your database and point out specific areas for improvement, and then you can decide whether you need a full analysis or not.

This pre-analysis will be completely free for you