The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

These guys will never take a second and realise this extremely obvious point..... this is a business field notorious for unrelenting greed, numerous multi million pound rule breaking fines and one that had to have regulation to stop them taking every last penny from the vulnerable.

Theres no regulator in place who audits decks for poker odds, no reps there who even understand poker. And even though they continue to try to gain unfair advantage in areas they are regulated in (and are fined continously for), there is a belief from players that they would leave an area with massive potential untapped.

Even if this were true..... gambling sites leave an obvious opportunity to gain an advantage, without recourse.... wouldnt the average person with a functioning brain find this astonishing????

I think you've said things that have extreme value, and not only is the example you give reductive, there are a thousand different ways to intervene... however, the foundation is this... if you have 1 you want 10, if you have 10 you want 100, etc. etc.!! Anyone who denies it is either paid by the company in question, or is simply gullible and wants to be right at all costs, or is it the part that doesn't understand what they're talking about!! Even if it were an exaggeration... checking doesn't cost anyone anything... think about bots, multi-accounts, cheating in general by players. Why are they done? Let's look for the origin of the problem... for the same reason that the poker rooms want and make these adjustments... in any case, it's a search for profit because they believe it's theirs, and that if they don't do it, others will do it!! Or to defend themselves from others who would otherwise take advantage of them.
Personally, I've often heard of mafia involvement in certain poker rooms. So, such a strong ethic on the part of the top management, I don't think it's possible. They must also have sustainable business lines, obviously! Instead of fighting among ourselves and arrogantly trying to push our ideas forward without achieving anything, we could use our voices to ask for things that interest us all. See, in Germany, petitions to regain competitiveness. In Italy, a players' union because the poker system is going through difficult times. So, poker rooms must offer a fair service for EVERYONE! And in exchange, they take a percentage of this pie. Let them contribute their share! This is what we must ask.

Whats your source on this?
So every sites rigs the deck the exact same way LOL. And they say small game because its always microstakes struggling players who say its rigged and never a mid/high stakes player.

Talk about bending words. I've said there is a gambling regulation in each country, not specific to poker. What would you like? a specific poker regulator, baccarat regulator, roulette regulator etc etc. Rooms are being checked for non-randomness (ie rigging the deck) and they pass the tests.
You dont need someone with a poker brain to look at these results again.
But the irony remains that you want this so bad, but when someone with a poker brain asks you to supply some results so they can a look at it you decline.

You've said you are a 25+ year winner. You've also said you want to warn beginners about the rigged decks.
So taking a few minutes out of your busy schedule to download a tracker doesnt seem like a crazy thing to do. But of course, making a little effort is an out-of-this-world idea to you.
Good to hear you also describe yourself as a recreational player though😉

Your eyes see 1 hand after another. Your mind is very biased.
A tracker would give a perfect overview of the entire sample with numbers that dont lie.
Its quite astonishing that I have to tell a 25+ year winner what a tracker contributes.

Wait, why do you suddenly know so much about a trackers since you are a recreational player who never needed one :p
If you think math is important why do you refer more to anecdotes about avalanches and your eyes than a tracker overview which gives you a mathemical overview of everything in once?

Such a funny sentence. You understand regulators act in legality. They give licenses and fines etc. RNG checks are not their business. And dealed hands are being checked by the millions and millions for anything non-random. Odds are just odds. 9% means the same inside or outside poker.
But then again, you are a recretional who never learned how to use a tracker so I get why you are confused by this game time and time again😉

I dont know about coin poker policy, I know they just revamped their whole software.
Hand histories werent locally stored in the past but you could request them at support, dont know if that is still the case.
But when it comes to sky poker, hand histories are certainly being stored.
Some people just are very lazy.

Also you say coin doesnt allow hand histories but you've clearly imported hands from stars, pacific, party, winamax, gg & coin. (maybe you can tell GGruinedPoker how to import hhs from gg :p)
So you are a lot further than most.
And I see you are not running that well. Does the software see a pattern like the others, maybe avalanches of 1-4 outers or you just experience some bad luck with PFAI's?

If you want to learn more about the specific tournament variance here is a great tool for it:

https://www.primedope.com/tournament-variance-calculator/

Primedope

Primedope Tournament Variance Calculator 2026

[QUOTE=Slugant;59261393]
Talk about bending words. I've said there is a gambling regulation in each country, not specific to poker.

Also Quote;

Such a funny sentence. You understand regulators act in legality. They give licenses and fines etc. RNG checks are not their business. And dealed hands are being checked by the millions and millions for anything non-random. Odds are just odds. 9% means the same inside or outside poker.

You said these things right? RNG checks are not a regulators businesss. Correct. What is the sole thing they issue their certificate on, which you pasted a few pages back? Solely issued on the findings of a 3rd party audit.

Now, the audit houses refuse to enter a conversation of 'do they check for anything other than how often each card comes out'.... but your claim is 'checked by the millions and millions for ANYTHING NON RANDOM'. If you could prove this, as testing houses do not in my experience, disclose this.

If you could show us proof that they check for how many times a hand wins when 94% favourite to do so on the turn, whether the percentages of pair v pair all in preflop stack up statistically... anything along those lines..... You like proof, so if we could see this please.

PS also i just played a heads up game against a player where the experience is generally the same. He was all in 6 times with a less than 20% chance of surviving, but ended up sucking out a 7th to win the game. What do you think id gain by having a poker tracker, when i know the odds and i know what ive just seen. How do you think that would improve my game? I should learn not to get him all in when he has less than a 20% chance? I have absolutely no need for a tracker in my games of omaha hi lo.

Also you know what i play and how would you like to describe myself as a player? A pro? A semi-pro? You would have a field day! I keep it real and its still something you use as a put down....

Regulators dont issue out rng certification. Independent companies like BMM testlabs do.
Regulators issue out gambling licenses. You seem to mix the two up quite a lot.

And they do not issue out their licenses correlated to RNG checks.
Pokerstars for instance has passed every 3rd party RNG check but in a lot of countries including my own they dont have a license. Same goes for partypoker.

Good to hear you are still playing these rigged games after 25 years
The evil gambling companies must be thrilled with such a loyal customer.

Because you described yourself just this morning.

Did you forget so quickly? Maybe you're the one who is an alzheimers boy after all 😉

Or do you just take the role this suits you at the moment?
When it comes to importing hh's you are just a beginner and shouldnt be bothered. But when it comes to understanding a tweaked RNG you are suddenly an expert.
One moment you are the savior with a mission to protect the newcomers against the evil poker sites who all rig their deck in the exactly the same way.
The next minute he is playing there again.
I hope you are more credible in your many successful businesses 😃

Slugant said; What would you like? a specific poker regulator, baccarat regulator, roulette regulator etc etc.

This is an interesting comment, as it proves you are making the same mistake that The Gambling Commission makes.... lumping Poker in with games of pure chance. Im surprised (or am i) that you wouldnt see what was wrong with your statement.

Yes i would like a specific Poker Regulator.

Because there needs to be an understanding there is a huge amount of skill involved, whereas roulette, bingo, spins, there is none. The Regulators do not see the difference, therefore there is no understanding of poker odds and the way these can be manipulated. To a Regulator, Poker is a game of chance, the same as all the other games you name.... so if you play, they think you will win some and lose some.... its just down to your luck.

This is why there is zero understanding that regulation towards outcomes needs to be looked at. To them, you win some you lose some and all sites need to do is make sure customers can afford it. If each card comes out within acceptable ratios to each other, to them that means its random and the certificate is given. There is no thought or understanding by any Regulatory body to what percentages are being busted, as to them, you got lucky one day but not the next.

Poker is played for and is exactly the same as Slots, Roulette, Baccarat, Bingo to them.... no further checks required.

lmao, you can tell 'ole Percy had a few..

So you havent got any proof that testing houses test for specific poker odds situations and ' for signs of it not being random' . That is all i asked, thank you for clarifying. They are tested for how often each card comes out within an acceptable percentage, not how it affects the hand.

Did you really just state that slots where tested for randomness? Wow! Even the sites dont claim this. It is accepted that these totally are not random and there is a return to player percentage they have to meet on these!

Slugant said; But again, these companies you see as evil and rigging must be thrilled to have a 25 year long customer in you. You really showed them your backbone.

Because you keep repeating and repeating this phrase, i will answer again. Who ever said these sites were 'evil'. Where do you get these words? I see the sites as actually showing business acumen, spotting an opportunity of poor regulation and taking advantage of the situation. Any business will push rules to the limit if there is a loophole. I think you will find i have always blamed the Regulators (perhaps read back for the 20 odd times ive told you this...you have to stop this same question ****) for claiming they regulate but actually know absolutely nothing about the subject the are supposed to be regulating, and this is the problem, not the sites.

Once again i will remind you of the several answers you have had before (one even on this page), that i play as ive adjusted my game to the decks crazy performance, eg folding, were with a real deck id be all in etc...... and make modest profits for holiday money etc... which you claim are all lies, that i lose and cant possibly play for holiday money as i have a business and business qualifications.

Have you ever noticed that now and then i get someone with a similar view on online decks and they support my comments personally. Not many wander in, granted. But for all the heat i get from believers, no-one ever quotes you and backs YOU up. You embarrass them. I think you have a friend in BobThe Slob, but even you wouldnt want to admit to that for obvious reasons.

If cards were affecting hands in a steady different manner it would not be random and it would not pass a randomization test. For example, lets say an ace comes up the acceptable percentage but always combined with a king this would not be random and they would fail the test. So RNG checks do test this but you are to stubborn or stupid to understand.

But since you are so evidence-prone all of a sudden might I ask you; Where is the proof of your claim that every site is rigging the exact same way across all stakes?

Wait, you dont know what random is do you? Of course slots are set at 95% payout or something similar but that doesnt exclude randomness...
A roulette wheel is also making the sure the bank will win in the long-run but where the ball drops is still random.... How do you not get this?

But since you loved chatgpt so maybe they can explain it to you in a manner you understand

So your comment that they arent random and arent tested for randomness is a lie... Again. Why do you often make such blatant lies that can be so easily checked as being untrue? Its just not a great strategy.

It is even being tested by Ecogra which you mentioned is a big part of why licenses are issued in the UK.

And it ends with "If you want, I can show you how to quickly check whether a specific casino or slot is actually certified (it’s easier than most people think)."

I would say its easy too, but apparently still too hard for TheWaddy

Lol, now you respect the sites?
They were greedy, not caring about customers, breaking rules for which they got fined, rigging decks and targeting gambling addics... But now you cant label that as evil, now its suddenly showing business acumen??? Get out of here 😃

Btw, this stuff about gambling sites doesnt scream "I see thee them as showing business acumen"

And many more alike. So to answer your question where do I get these words from? Your own😉

And all the actions you were angry about are actions from gambling sites, not the regulators
Gambling sites were greedy, not regulators
Gambling sites didnt care about customers, not regulators
Gambling sites broke rules and got fined, not regulators, infact regulators fined them
The regulators arent the ones who make your magical decks, gambling sites do
And gambling sites were targeting known gambling addicts which you were so mad about, they werent targeted by regulators you know

And now he says "I think you will find i have always blamed the Regulators"
You are just too funny

You got it in with 69% and lost... Wow, you must be the first person in history to undergo this brutal injustice. Its strange that you talk about having more 90% busts than holds but decide to show a 69% favorite lose.

A bigger problem is you being unable to access pokercraft and therefore unable to analyze your game/hands. This shouldnt be happening and is an issue I havent heard from players before. But whats the issue, do you get an "access denied" or what does the glitching entails? Does it work from a different pc?

This was just soooo predictable, I could hear all this as I wrote the post!

If you want to believe that I dont blame regulation ultimately for all this, you can…. Anybody can read back and see multiple posts about this. Talking about me ‘respecting’ poker sites now is an equally big lie as much as the ‘evil’’ you mentioned just the post before…your claims are extreme ends, so which is it? Neither words used. All there in black and white.

Clearly, I have explained many times sites are in a business that’s the devils arse for attitude and manipulation ... But its ultimately the regulators who are letting poker down. You do show autistic signs that you think i quote that ‘i dont blame the sites for taking advantage of lapse regulation’ that this somehow shows I like them and respect them!?

I just dont think you should be posting with your apparent conditions causing misquoting and repetition.

Here is the official lead on slots;

Now whilst I accept this is how slots work , you appear not to.

So are you happy that this random description of slots would be applied to poker? Cos the way ‘random’ slots work is there is a guaranteed ‘return to player percentage’, with built in ‘programmed with specific mathematical traits’.

Ive a feeling that this description is kind of what is happening with poker, where players are getting a RTP and the deck programmed with mathematical traits…. But Im guessing you will 360 on it and say the randomness is a different random.

i think someone deleted my comment lol but

works as of today after badgering support again last night
ya it was the access denied error, no computer or connection changed it. my phone worked. i could like get to the home page, maybe click a tab and it would just error out everytime.

i just posted the most recent tilting beat that i had, been grinding my buns off man.
i was tilted to the bone.
its tough when you grind micros cuz the time spent is so unrewarding when you bust, even entertainment valuewise, when you sit for 5 hours+

its just wild cuz i see so many like, 0-20 dollar cashing accounts hitting miracle pings

still think GG has some fishy action rng pvi thing going on

but i made two final tables today so im not bitching.

LOL so first you say this

Then you show a picture with the first sentence
"while outcomes are random"

Of course slots have an RTP, that how they make money. This doesnt exclude randomness, you dont have any clue what random actually means.

Roulette has an RTP of 36/37 (with 1 zero) but where the ball ends up is random.
These games do not have to be rigged to make the bank a profit. Just like poker, there will always be an advantage for the casino (albeit a zero in roulette, rtp in slots, rake in poker), no modification for this profit is needed whatsoever. But again, since I know you struggle with the definition of the word random, it is random.

Wow, how do you still not understand what random means??
Havent you read anything about it before posting? (guess not otherwise you wouldnt have posted a picture with the text outcomes are random)
Random doesnt entail something being +EV or break-even, its about being "a process or sequence that lacks a discernible pattern or predictability, where outcomes occur by chance". And this definition of randomness applies to it all. Your whole post can be summarized by this FYP

So no 360 at all, random = random, you just dont want to get it because you would have to take back your baseless statement, or you are especially stupid. But just to check if by now you understand randomness, do you think roulette is random? And why yes/no?

And what would happen it sites gave players an RTP in poker. So all players get 95% of the profits they should actually have...
But mind you they play each other and make/lose money off each other, so where one player loses 5% the other gains 5%.
Could you please explain of how in your mind this system would actually work without multiple contradictions?

Its not a known error as far as I have seen.
This is the GG thread, maybe you can post in there to see if others have the same issue and maybe have found a fix:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/292/o...

These two dont intertwine. PVI is a hideous thing but its affecting rakeback. I think you just lumped some popular whining terms together

yea, you are :p

Yes slots have statistical return to player and are random at the same time.

A roulette game is also random and yet has a house edge build in into the game rules.

I am saying this as a Gambling expert as both an advantage player and as somebody who is working in Gambling.

You just have no idea how any thing related to gambling works. both as the player and on the business side even more so.

Just like most riggies you seem to consider yourself an expert in all kind of things despite the evidence to the contrary.

Nothing is programmed to return 95% the game rules just provide a 5% house edge.

This edge can relatively easily be changed when it comes to slot games not by messing with the programming but by changing the % of how often high value tiles appear.

To make this easier to understand think about a mechanical slot machine.

It has reels, these reels have a certain amount of high value and low value symbols.

The house edge comes from the odds of hitting certain combination and how much is payed out for those combinations.

Just as in roulette were the single 0 wheel guarantees a 2.7% house edge as there are 37 numbers on the wheel but bettig on a number only returns 36x your bet(35x winnings + 1x initial bet) .

A double zero roulette wheel has 5,26%. Still random different rtp all done through a rule change.

So in essence you remove some of the symbols from the reels or replace them with others. that doesnt make it less random.

I am also not talking about cheating here. Most Slot Game providers offer their slots in multiple rtp settings for example: 96%, 94%, 92% and 90%.

You can always see in the game rules which version of the game you play. The reason for multiple rtp settings is beside the fact that indeed some casinos are more greedy and want games with more advantageous rules. The other reason is that in some jurisdictions taxes are so high that 96% slots cant be offered at a profit so the rtp had to be reduced.

Do any of you believe decks are tested for poker odds. Yes or No. Are decks audited (for example) a dominated Ace wins in an all in preflop situation? Or how often an underpair beats an overpair all in preflop? And the hundreds of other poker odds situations?

I think, like me, you dont.

Because 'random' within the gaming industry means the outcome can not be predicted via patterns or repetetive situations... and thats all it needs to be. This is ok for all the other games of luck, but poker is a game of odds.

Astronomical odds can still be produced and undetected in poker.... and pass RNG tests, as 'random' to them just means it could not be predicted or had not been a repeated sequence that had happened several times before.

You can attempt to put me down on ' i dont know what random means'.... but this is why its unclear after 25yrs...

A flush coming on the river for the 9th time on the run in one heads up game for an opponent, i would be looking for testing houses to looking at how that is mathematically possible and how often these combined odds are being created.... but in reality, if that 9th flush was different from the rest, involving different cards, the testing is just checking that it couldnt be predicted. My standards for confirming 'random occurences' within poker games is hugely different to theirs, so yes there is a descrepancy of 'what random means'.

The argument remains.... should poker be tested exactly the same as games that are pot luck. There is no expectancy, no busting of odds in any other game of pure luck tested for 'randomness' , as all it needs to be is 'unpredictable with no set patterns'.

TheWaddy

Every card that is dealt by an acceptable RNG is dealt randomly, in exactly the same way that every card dealt by a human dealer after a proper shuffle is dealt randomly.

Over the long term, the number of times someone should fill a flush, or whatever you look at, will occur at an acceptable rate, online or in a casino.

YES, a clear yes. Because if underpairs starts beating overpair more often than expected that would be a pattern or repetitive.
And you just claimed "Because 'random' within the gaming industry means the outcome can not be predicted via patterns or repetetive situations"
So since the RNG check concluded the dealings were random (i.e. no pattern or repetitive situations (your words)) there is no specific pattern like underpairs overperforming or dominates aces underperforming or whatever example.

Also, since the games passed the test of checking for patterns and repetitiveness in your view, how do you adjust your game to the RNG? You've said before you change your strategy to fit the rigged RNG, must be though when there are no patterns 😃

Well, its been clear to everyone else, just not for you. You are the only one with a different definition of the word random as everyone else.
But maybe you've learned something today... do you now understand why games like slots and roulette are indeed random? And random is the exact way dealt cards in poker are random.

Because your standards are nonsense. In your example the flush hits 100% on 9 times. If this was a pattern no dealed hand distribution would survive the test, because then it could be predicted. Its weird you dont see that as you also claim their randomness simply means no patterns. You just have absolutely no idea how these tests are performed and are just blindly shooting in the wind. And your standards of "random occurences" is simply put "I dont trust anything, especially evidence"

Yes, because 40% in slots means the same as 40% in poker and 40% in roulette. You should know this, you even posted a picture with a big ole sentence "while outcomes are random"😃😃
Numbers are numbers, random is random.
But i guess to you, after 25 years, its still unclear even though for everyone else its clear in 25 seconds.

Hope your multiple successful businesses arent math-related🙂

You also missed this part, please explain how a site would benefit from this:

no 360 at all, random = random, you just dont want to get it because you would have to take back your baseless statement, or you are especially stupid. But just to check if by now you understand randomness, do you think roulette is random? And why yes/no?

And what would happen it sites gave players an RTP in poker. So all players get 95% of the profits they should actually have...
But mind you they play each other and make/lose money off each other, so where one player loses 5% the other gains 5%.
Could you please explain of how in your mind this system would actually work without multiple contradictions?

Imagine being a successful businessman named Percy who thinks that a poker site spends a big bunch of cash on a quantum based rng and then some more on hacking the closed source software on the thing to force it to put out non random numbers, based on player behaviour (instead of not using the thing at all and using a plain ole computer to put out rigged hands).

MOderator.... I agree.... they test for how often a card comes out in relation to any other, that no set patterns emerge, that the next card can not be predicted... like a real deck.

This is perceived as random in their eyes. As they dont understand poker and its odds (not my words, theirs) and see it as a game of complete luck (we know this as its regulated and tested in the same category as pure chance games), its pure ignorance on their part that this is all that it needs to be to be construed as random.

It is random in their context, as eg that queen of hearts on the river could not be predicted as it showed no previous pattern to do so... and has come out within expected expectancy.... but the real story to the poker player is that it has actually given my opponent his 5th sub 10% chance in 5 minutes. This could be a mixture of str8 flush, straight, trips, full houses... completely different hands, no patterns....

But, therefore, it puts their claim of it being a random occurence into jeopardy, although they have no idea it has.... because they are working on a different, much more basic level.

So in my opinion, testing houses and regulators defintion of '100% random' is a lot different to those many players who dont believe it is. As their perceived idea of what random is, is operating at a much more basic theory than to the knowledgable player.

They are looking at it purely of how often a card comes out, without being able to predict it... ok for a game of chance, not nearly enough for a game of odds.

And this is why we have a split opinion. The standard of checks is not at a level conducive to poker.

Christ, fine Waddy you are right, slugant is wrong, poker sites are rigged, probably best if you stop playing the game and def stop going onto poker forums, get on with your life and be less ranty and angry instead. Hope this helps. Perhaps move onto being a flat earther or something.

Regards

Nah i was bitchin the other day. I was simply responding.

I dont even know what to say anymore.

Its like we dont even speak the same language.

Its not that you have to spell everything out. Its that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

So when you speak to people who do have a clue it seems like you have to spell everything out because in reality you misapply everything.

Usually people at least get some things right some of the time.

It cant be easy to be this wrong about every topic you mention all of the time.