GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

1) You can really only look at the first 3 games because everything after that was "garbage time".. A 72-win team with a 3-0 lead = forgone conclusion.... In the lockerrom before Game 4, Jordan said that "this is the most relaxed I've ever been in a Finals" - he assumed (correctly) that the series was over!!!

2) Kemp had real help and therefore faced less defensive attention, which boosted his efficiency... Specifically, Payton and Schrempf destroyed Pippen, who was worst-ever and forced Jordan to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).

In contrast to Jordan successfully carrying the scoring load on the championship level, Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams because excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams.. This is why he never carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention), and never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams).

Btw, Lebron choked for the first 3 games of the 13' Finals with 16 on 39% - this produced a 1-2 deficit that required teammate bailout... Then he choked for the first 4 games of the 16 Finals, which again required bailouts.

You make a great point that MJ doesn't have that killer instinct to beat a team when he has them down.

A lot like Steph Curry and losing when up 3-1.

Having a look at that series.

Kemp > Jordan Game 1
Kemp > Jordan Game 2
Kemp < Jordan Game 3
Kemp >>>> Jordan Game 4
Kemp = Jordan Game 5
Kemp > Jordan Game 6

Man, MJ got his ass saved by his teamates.

Jordan outplayed Kemp in every game except Game 4 where Jordan said he was relaxing.

Otoh, Lebron was outplayed in the Finals by Duncan, Parker, Jason Terry, Wade, Dirk, Bosh, Durant, AD, and more.

Regardless, the 96' Finals confirmed that Kemp was far superior to Pippen and the Bulls tried to trade Pippen for Kemp (but the Sonics refused after fan uproar).

Payton was also superior even if we just go by media awards, since he has more All-defense and All-NBA than Pippen (so does Stockton), while being a better scorer, passer, defender and leader than Pippen.

What's so funny - that's what he said when they played Game 4:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAoaAb3Nc...

He literally said it was the most relaxed that he'd EVER BEEN... his words - not mine

^^^ Swarming defense and constant double-teams on all 3 levels - the sonics were ONLY guarding jordan

Today's hands-off, wide open format is a joke by comparison

MJ wasn't relaxing in Game 6 when he had 22 points on 26% shooting with 5 turnovers?

Man, looking at that Game 6. Rodman was amazing.

I mean there were a lot of offensive rebound opportunities with the number of bricks MJ was tossing up, but 11 is still impressive. Highest Game Score by a considerable margin that game. Should have been the MVP. Saved MJ from having a Game 7.

Have you checked the box score mate

Jordan outplayed Kemp in the series and this is the consensus

You guys are obviously reaching massively

Otoh, Lebron was outplayed in many Finals by teammates and opponents alike.

So your reaching is actually just projecting Lebron's failures onto Jordan..

But Jordan had the perfect career by never getting outplayed by anyone in a series, and never losing as the favorite, or on the championship level... (or with preseason favorites and 1 or 2 seeds)... Otoh, Lebron has a losing record in every situation (preseason favorites, Finals teams, top seeds, all-star teammates, etc).

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The best possible case for someone outplaying Jordan in a Finals:

96' Jordan.... 27 ppg
96' Kemp..... 23 ppg

ACTUAL CASES of dudes outplaying Lebron in Finals:

07' Parker...... 25 ppg
07' Lebron'..... 22 ppg

11' Dirk.......... 25 ppg
11' Terry........ 19 ppg
11' Wade....... 27 ppg
11' Bosh........ 19 ppg
11' Lebron'..... 18 ppg

17' Durant...... 36 ppg
17' Lebron'...... 33 ppg

And Lebron was the 2nd-leading scorer on his team for the 2020 title run.

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..................................... Lebron........ MJ

Finals teams................... 4-6.......... 6-0
Preseason favs............... 3-4.......... 5-0
1 or 2 seeds.................... 4-5.......... 6-0
1 All-star teammate....... 1-7.......... 6-2
2 All-star teammates..... 2-3.......... 0-0

* Lebron has 5 losses with homecourt to 0 for MJ

CONCLUSION: Lebron is a massive loser with every type of good roster, while MJ was undefeated.. This gap in winning is due to the gap in their brands of ball and chemistry, aka ball-dominance vs ball movement/off-ball.

FINALS

13' Lebron.... 25 on 52.9 TS
96' Jordan..... 27 on 53.8 TS

Lebron certainly wasn't relaxing when he couldn't get past Boris Diaw and was held to 16 on 39% for the first 3 games, thus needing 7 games and teammate bailout to win.

Lebron also had horrific numbers in the 07' and 11' Finals as well.

And again, the Bulls won Game 6 by 12 points - this matters Jordan held his matchup to 12 points below his normal average, while everyone else let their man go off - Jordan's defense was literally the difference... You forget that Jordan was a GOAT defender, and this was demonstrated in many series and situations.

Ultimately, given how abysmal everyone was playing in the 96' Finals, 22 on 45% TS was considered a good game in that series, especially given the GOAT defense and all-round play as well... Overall, Jordan averaged 27 on 53.5 TS compared to 25 on 52.8 TS for Lebron in the 13' Finals.

Jordan bricked because Rodman wasn't an offensive option and allowed opposing defenses to have a 5 on 4 advantage - the Bulls would've won easier and Jordan's efficiency would've been better if they had a viable option at PF instead of Rodman, and also a sidekick that did better than 15.7 on 34% (pippen) - this ineptness offensively put all the attention on Jordan, yet he still got a 3-0 lead with 31 on 46%, while shooting 54% on Payton for the series.

Ultimately, Jordan can win with any type of PF because he won with Horace during the 1st three-peat, while Kukoc was the starting PF in 98'... Jordan also won with 4/8 on 35% from Rodman in 97' Playoffs.. Rodman was no different than Ben Wallace in 08' and 09' for Lebron, or Shaq in 2010 - they were all washed up fossils.. Jordan still won because the PF position was a role player position, while Lebron needed All-NBA talents at PF.

Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's for the first 4 games of the 16' Finals, which caused a 1-3 deficit.

This is the historical record, not an opinion.

And again, it's Lebron's STANDARD to choke early on and then need teammate bailout later in the series because this happened in the 13' Finals as well - Lebron averaged 16 on 39% through 3 games, and therefore needed 7 games and teammate bailout to win.

So don't act surprised or pretend that these aren't the facts.. Most people would read that sticky and think that the following 4 facts are quite true: 1) Lebron underperformed/choked for 4 games, so he needed teammate and league bailout to win... 2) it's impossible to lose when a sidekick outplays the league MVP, so the Cavs should be knocked for needing 7 games... 3) It isn't better to get destroyed and knocked down for 11 rounds and then get lucky in the 12th, versus dominating throughout and getting the early knockout... 4) The Cavs were the preseason favorite and a super-team of 3 franchise players facing a "normal" roster of 1 franchise player, aka it was a mismatch on paper.

Jordan doesnt relax, he may have mixed muscle relaxants with alcohol. But he doesn't relax in the NB-****ing-A finals

fallguy's arguments are a complete joke nowadays

Okay, it was Rodman's fault that Jordan shot 26%. Excellent work as always.

FG - "Jordan can win with any power forward"

Then proceeds to list 2 Hall of Famers, and another guy who was an All Star and multi-time All NBA defensive team member.

fallguy couldn't win an argument with himself

It was out of MJ's own mouth, so it wasn't an opinion...

MJ said he was "more relaxed than I've ever been", so the only interpretation of this is that he was relaxed for that game.

You're just mad that I proved he was relaxed for that game...

Ultimately, 72 wins and up 3-0???.. C'mon... Foregone conclusion - the man is human.. Of course he was relaxed and he said so.

It's common knowledge that Rodman forces teams to play 4 on 5 offensively, and that's why he couldn't win with the league MVP in 1995..

And people don't realize that Popovich traded Rodman to the Bulls because he thought he was HURTING and SABATOGING the Bulls, as Rodman states in the clip above..

No one wanted Rodman's pink hair, wedding dresses, and disruption - he was basically out of the league until Jordan saved his career..

And of course he was washed up with 4/8 for the 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs - he was worse than old Ben Wallace or Shaq when they played with Lebron in 09' and 10'.

Ben Wallace and Shaq are HOF's too, but they were old alongside Lebron just like Rodman.. Rodman averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs.

And everyone knows that Kukoc made HOF for being GOAT of Euroleague at that time (Anthony Parker and others have since taken over that title).

So again, by three-peating with Horace Grant and then winning with 4/8 Rodman and Kukoc, Jordan proved that the PF position was a role player position for him ..

Otoh, Lebron needs All-NBA franchise players at PF like AD, Love and Bosh.. AND he needs a kobe-like closer in Wade/Kyrie.. So Lebron is a joke compared to MJ . A literal punchline that needs tons of help but still mostly loses.. He mostly loses, regardless of cast, so he's just a loser.

If anyone is reading or following this thread, they know that I'm ragdolling you guys on every point.

Show me a single point that you think you won on.. I'll wait

I've comprehensively won every point.. Again, let me know if there's something I've missed, not addressed, or lost on... There simply isn't anything

For example, you guys laughed at the idea of Jordan being relaxed for Game 4...... until I showed you that he said exactly that... lol.. the entire thread is this way, with me providing hardcore stats and facts to support every assertion.. Carry on

Further evidence was provided when Jeff Van Gundy said that sending defenders to double-team Jordan kills your defensive rebounding (here).. i.e. when Kemp or another big man doubles Jordan, there's no one to defensive rebound and the ball falls in Rodman's lap for an offensive rebound..

This is why all of Jordan's PF's have most of their highest ORB% seasons or playoff runs alongside Jordan.. Ultimately, Rodman relies on playing with a highly double-teamed MVP like Robinson or Jordan to inflate his rebounding to all-time levels.. Jordan's presence simply improved Rodman's rebounding and obviously covered for his lack of scoring..

Quite simply, Jordan carried Rodman thoroughly and saved his career, in addition to making Pippen and Paxson.. Meanwhile, guys like BJ and Longley started alongside Jordan but were quickly relegated to the bench of expansion teams after leaving the Bulls.. So Jordan won by having bench players from expansion teams actually START for him.