MTT question - calling wide from the BB off of a tiny stack.

That’s my question too BUT if you decide to call, you HAVE TO gii otf. What worries me tho is his min-open from MP with 15 bb. You’re crushed with T6o, even given pot odds. I’d just fold and get in later. You can open jam with some high cards or suited ones, once in a while you even get folds if ppl are shallow. I don’t think I’d call a jam SB vs BB either with that embarrassing trash. Maybe if I was 3bb or so. But I’m a donk and Nath has my post on his watchlist so let him rule here

T6o is a fold here even with the pot odds discount. The min-open from MP with 15bb is actually a strong tell - short stacks min-opening from MP usually have a real hand. With 3.8bb behind after posting your pot odds need to make up for the fact that T6o has about 32% equity against a reasonable MP opening range. QtangPendek is right that if you call you have to go with it on the flop which makes the initial decision even more important. Save your 3.8bb and find a better spot to open jam.

3.8

OP check your math cause stacks don’t add up

He said he called 1.1 and had 1.7 after folding, so he would have 2.8 if he folded preflop. He probably went he had 3.8 after posting the BB ante but not the BB.

He is getting 4-1 to call the push. Probably not quite enough odds, plus some advantage to staying alive with a microstack. Preflop call is probably a little bad despite huge pot odds, getting a little over 4-1 immediate odds preflop.

Good to think of flat calling here. I used to see HHs where people would fold KTo in their BB to a minraise with 10xBB, when it was clearly a flat call with pot odds.

He made a mistake in second calculation, he had 4.8 pre BB, and 3.8 after paying the mandatory BB. This is very important here I guess. If he had 2.8 BB after the preflop BB, if I was him I’d call close to ATC but from a late position actor, not shallow MP opener. I used to jam here with deuces or so to an early position opener, hoping for AK etc but nearly always lost to a higher pp. I guess it’s always better to OPEN JAM even trash like T6o and get caller by BB WITH lets say 85s cause the called had odds and had to call mathematically than to get in now as an underdog cause he’s always fighting with two overs or a pp.

Yeah apologies I made a mistake here.

I did end up with 1.2bb after check-folding this hand and the next hand where I was SB. Working backwards I had:

1.7bb after check-folding the hand in question
3.8bb after paying the bb ante but before paying the BB itself
4.8bb in the hand before where I was UTG

Question: Ok so the consensus appears to be that I made an error in calling here (especially considering the min-raise by the short stack). If this player had 20bb+ what stack would I need to have before I could have a calling range?

In theory the shorter you are , the more you can call because its so easy to realize your equity

Right but what's the limit of that?

Is there a stack that you shouldn't ever call of ...Say for example 3bb, 4bb or 5bb stacks because check/folding would leave you with so little left that you'd be better off either folding or getting it in to realise all of your equity by seeing all 5 cards.

In a spot like this I wouldn't call a 2.1x preflop raise with 3.8 bb's because we are in min cash territory where the next payout won't be much more (and possibly the same) and we will be crippled if we call and then fold on the flop. Here I either jam or fold. The reason why I don't call is because we have no fold equity if we want to do a Stop n Go (by jamming on the flop). Even if Villain misses the flop they are getting the right price to call with basically all of their hands so all our bluffs would be pointless.

There are two occasions I would call in a spot like this. In both the payout differences are huge so this would be an ICM spot. The first one is where we would want to know if we hit the flop in order to continue. Being in the BB is an advantage because we can't get re-raised preflop. The second one is a situation where there are still players to act and if one of them reraises all in and gets called by the original raiser then we could move up without having to play the hand. I have seen this done a few times at Triton final tables.

Can make an argument either way here but ‘old reg’ advice that you’re making some horrid blunder by calling is wrong. I like your analysis of all options. Thinking is mostly good. Just be aware that post flop, if you hit, check call, don’t stop and go.

The main reason I posted is to remind new players to consider the SB decision on the next hand. Remember you have most of an orbit to find a spot to pick up a hand to win blinds and ante. Even if you are at 0.01bb and win the hand, you still win the whole ante.

Saw someone make the FT after posting 4k in the sb with 1k behind and then folding the SB to find a better spot to win the ante (then double double etc).

These spots are complex, especially considering we're playing against humans who don't always respond optimally. On the final table though T6o should almost certainly be folding. With ICM effects our short stack needs to be calling off and jamming a lot tighter than we would earlier in the tournament. There's value in surviving and laddering so pot odds aren't the overriding factor.

As to whether we should have a calling range at all... If you look at GTO solutions they'll often have a big blind calling range off of as small as an 8-10 bb stack, but usually with less than 5 BB it's jam or fold. I don't want to make any absolute statement as I'm sure there is an exception with very specific stack size setups, but usually with less than 5 bb there are no calls.

Mr. Rick touched on the theoretical reason, since if we call we should have no fold equity if we then jam the flop and we're going to be priced in to get it in on the flop anyway.

However against humans sometimes a stop and go can make sense. They might never fold if we jam preflop, but often amateurs will incorrectly fold when we miss the flop and jam. So there can be an exploitative reason to just call preflop, if we can sometimes get our opponent to forfeit their equity post flop. If we hit the flop hard we would often want to slow play to encourage our opponent to put in the rest of their money.

Generally I think you want to avoid calling preflop off of these tiny stacks when it is more than half your stack, only to fold postflop.

It is not half his stack. He had 2.8xBB if he folded preflop and 1.7xBB folding on the flop.

Flat calling might be correct with a suited connector. You would make a pair or draw enough when you got a good flop, and might have little equity when you missed. When you shoved with a draw, you might occasionally get a fold.

With T6o, if you call and fold when you don't make a pair or straight draw, it seems losing. The hand just isn't strong enough to shove preflop or call on the flop.

I think you're applying the right logic to the wrong spot. As mentioned by tournamentDataGuy, 'The min-open from MP with 15bb is actually a strong tell—short stacks min-opening from MP usually have a real hand.'

If the spot were different—say, the chip leader opening with a 40bb stack and you having 7bb—then calling super wide would make sense. In that case, their range is filled with marginal hands, and any piece of flop equity (hitting your Ten, your Six, or even a draw) would be enough to make a profitable jam. At least that’s how I view the spot; I’m not sure if you guys agree or if I’m missing something here.