Line check and thought process check against aggro
1/3 nl 400 max 8 handed
V 30 ish guy. I’m new to the table don’t have many reads on him. He does have a huge stack $1200. He seems more aggressive than the usual 1/3 player. I’ve also seen him limp a few hands.
H I haven’t played many hands. I won one from the blinds at this point. ~$420.
Pre
V CO raises to ten
Folds to H in BB 3! to 35. AKo
V calls.
Flop ($63 after rake) A 8 7 rainbow
H checks. I thought it was unlikely V had an A since there was only two of us, and it seemed like a safe flop.
V $30
H calls. Planning on raising turn
Turn ($123) Q. The A and Q are both diamonds.
H doesn’t like the Q. Checks
V checks.
River ($123) black 2
H bets $40. Targeting a queen or a small pocket pair.
V raises to $120
H doesn’t like the raise. Tries to put V on a hand. AQ or a flopped set doesn’t make sense since the turn checkback. Single pair hands don’t make sense either. I do some math. There’s $283 in the pot with $80 for me to call. I think I’m getting the odds, and I flip in the call.
Reveal later V holdings are a doozy.
How many mistakes did I make here?
10 Replies
Pre looks fine - maybe you can go to 40. Flop - I like betting vs most but if you think he's aggro and will barrel check is probably better. If he's aggro on the river here I actually like betting smaller like 20 to induce a light x/r as I don't expect him to have much here. As played I would call it off if he's capable of bluffing here - his line makes zero sense other than maybe 22.
After reviewing this hand I too thought 22 made sense. And maybe A2s?. Though I didn’t consider this at the time.
I would bet the flop and check with AA or my weaker aces, too much value to be had with AK here. If we knew he was really aggressive and would put in a lot of $ for us, then fine check, but that's a heck of an assumption to make against any random 1/3 player.
I see it as a hard spot to be bluffing but also hard for him to have value. If he did have value such as a fancy play with AQo or w/e, why wouldn't he raise bigger after missing a street of value? We could even potentially beat a hand that thinks it's value like AJ, as your small bet doesn't really look like AK or better. It could also be the rare spazzy bluff again playing off the small river bet size. Either way, I'm not folding. And if we're wrong, we still get to learn a lot about how he plays.
I didn’t think at the time that there are a lot of Aces I beat on the flop. I may even get a call from a pocket pair. I may bet out here more often.
I also thought the small river bet size looked weak. I also Hesitated/tanked slightly on the earlier streets which may have led V to think I was afraid of the A on board.
After I called V says you’re good. And throws his cards face up Kd10d. The turn gave him the nut flush draw, inside straight draw, and a one outter to a royal!
And I gave him a free card to draw. I really wanted to ask if I had played correctly since there was no betting on the turn. Also my plan on the flop was to check raise turn, but I got scared when I saw the queen and would have most likely have called to river.
I also have questions about what if I would have cbet flop. V may have folded here. Maybe he decides to float. Then it would have been very likely that I would have faced a turn raise.
Not sure why we’re so quick to discount the possibility that V has a worse A.
We’re not very deep, so it’s easy to just get all the money in by going bet / bet / bet.
As played after V stabs flop we should raise setting ourselves up to jam turn.
My standard would be option one, as the x/r generates more folds than just cbetting and continuing, and isn’t required to get all the money in
Cbet the flop and keep the initiative, he probably just calls. Your check makes it look like the ace missed you, so villain stabs to see if you will fold.
You have to bet the turn for value. If villain has been following the pattern above, of course he will check it back. You have kinda allowed him to play perfectly against you, but luckily his draw missed.
Your plan to check-raise the turn is faulty because as you found out people won’t bet & the check-raise is a strong move that gets folds so much it’s better to use with bluffs.
At no point have you put any pressure on villain other than your 3bet pre-flop. He’s got you on your heels thinking he’s got this or that, but *focus on what villain thinks you have* and find a way to put pressure on him. You do realize you’re ahead and want more money in the middle.
You probably have to call the river after making a small, inducing type of bet. This ends up being a good play.
Grunch:
PRE - raise bigger. Make it $40, at least. Wouldn't hate making it $45-$50.
FLOP - as the PFR in a 3BP I'm mostly c-betting A-high boards. I don't hate checking from OOP, but I woudn't expect him to stab very much. As played, when he bets 1/2 pot, it seems like a square call. He could have some 2P and sets here.
TURN - Checking seems fine. Not necessarily because we're scared of the Q. Just because it doesn't make much sense to come out and donk, and we'll get more info when we check and see what he does.
RIVER - Not sure about that bet size. Against an aggro V with a big stack, I think I'd be doing a lot of checking here, expecting him to bet when we check three streets.
Are we betting for value? Are we planning to bet-fold, or bet-call? If we're planning to bet-call, I don't mind this size. If we're planning to bet-fold, I think I'd go a little bigger.
In this spot, on this run-out, I don't expect V to have very many bluff-raises if we lead out for 1/2-2/3 pot.
As played, I dunno. River raises tend to be under-bluffed, and ace-high boards tend to be under-bluffed, but that 3x raise sizing doesn't scream strength, IMO. It sort of feels like he rivered a set or 2P.
After I called V says you're good. And throws his cards face up Kd10d. The turn gave him the nut flush draw, inside straight draw, and a one outter to a royal!And I gave him a free card to draw. I really wanted to ask if I had played correctly since there was no betting on the turn. Also my plan on the flop was to check raise turn, but I got scared when I saw the queen and woul
I don't think you made any huge mistakes here. Sometimes we have to play defensively when we're OOP.
I wouldn't assume V would have raised turn after floating a flop c-bet. That would be pretty ambitious when we could have AA/QQ/AQ.
The one thing that stands out to me is your river bet sizing combined with your uncertainty about what to do when he raises. It suggests you're struggling to effectively range your opponents, or struggling to find lines you're confident in pursuing, perhaps because you're not thinking through the incentives at play.
Like, in this hand, we should decide before we act if we're checking to check-call or check-fold, or betting to bet-call or bet-fold.
It's fine to go for some thin value on the river, but betting small from OOP will often look like thin value or a bluff, when the IP player checks back on the turn. That can induce thinking opponents to raise as a bluff, to get us to fold our thin value.
This is why I said I'd be using a smaller size if the plan was to bet-call (expecting more raises as a bluff), or a larger size if the plan is to bet-fold (expecting few if any raises as a bluff).
I don't understand the turn check at all. Sure, V could have AQ, but he also has AJ, AT, broadways with bdfd. Seems like a clear barrel to me with V picking up FDs, SDs and pairs with a lot of floats and still value to be had from Ax.
I wouldn't check this flop. Going solidly after Ax and pocket pairs, 8x, straight draws etc. Betting this flop with a lot of hands.
As played I don't know why you "didn't like" the Queen. When you checked the flop you hoped V would stab with nothing a lot, and nothing will include an awful lot of Qx here.
With that in mind I don't like the river sizing - I want to size up to go after worse Aces and Qx that have been trying to pot control. As played I'm not seeing that many big hands played this way with the turn check back, so calling river seems OK.
What do we think about the hand from V point of view? Do people like his line or prefer a turn barrel?
...What do we think about the hand from V point of view Do people like his line or prefer a turn barrel
The thing that stands out to me is that V stabbed the ace-high flop with just a couple backdoor draws, then he checks back turn when he picks up equity.
I can sort of understand checking back the turn so he doesn't get x/r'd off his equity. I'm not sure I understand the flop stab. I'd guess he's just stabbing whenever his opponent checks to him, regardless of the flop texture.
In his spot, I think I'd rather check back flop and then start bluffing on the turn if hero checks again, or just flat call if hero bets, when we pick up that BD draw. Doesn't seem like he had much of a reason to stab flop. Trying to figure out what his plan was for the river in this line, if his draw bricks.
When he bets flop but checks back turn, he should expect hero to lead out on a lot of rivers. He'll have to raise as a bluff if he wants to win, but his line looks kinda FOS. What's he think he's repping?
Seems like he wasn't planning ahead. He was just reacting to whatever hero did, without thinking about hero's range or what story he's telling.
Also interesting that if hero c-bets the flop, he probably doesn't win as much.
