Ace Flops with KK
1/3 8h
Game has several strong players, offset by a giant whale, who is not involved in this story.
UTG (550) opens 10 = loose passive recreational, gets involved but not out of line.
Hero KdKc (650) MP bumps 50 = tight image.
Villain (750) CO calls = just switched tables, word is he’s one of the strongest pros from another room. UTG calls
3way to flop - this was a standard play, unless you argue sizing, no need to review this decision, but comments are welcome.
(150) 7d3cAs
UTG checks
Hero checks (squeezed between players) maybe not thinking clearly - a mistake?
V immediately bets 100
Hero?
H is sick. Does V have an ace or just taking advantage of the situation? Was not making a cBet a big mistake? What now?
*needed to add
UTG folded ahead of me to the hundred
I fold here especially to this sizing.
Takeaway would be to consider what other hands you want to check in this situation so you don't get auto-owned.
EDIT
You could probably just bet small with your entire range as well because I guess you 3bet pretty snug here so AQ/AK will form a big part of your range.
Fold, your hand is face up.
First to add “one of the strongest pros from another room” isn’t cold calling a 3 bet pre.
I agree the large bet in position is suspicious as maybe a bluff. I would cbet this flop and would cbet with AK/AA.
A73r, and H raised pre: Agreeing with WereBeer here, and betting small with it all. It's pretty dry, and an Ace should only really be worried about another Ace.
Which makes V's b67 look really FOS, tbh. Especially with the described read. Is a "pro" cold calling a 3! here IP with AK/AQ, when they're not closing the action because of a passive rec opener in UTG? I'm 4!/f AKo, and maybe not getting involved with AQo. Certainly not cold-calling, even IP.
Then betting big when an Ace hits an otherwise bone dry flop? Yeah, sure. This smells like someone trying too hard versus a rec population they don't respect.
Torn between jam now or, if you're giving them enough credit to hand-read, peel flop then jam over whatever they bet on turn. If x-x, then big valuebet river. Isn't that what you'd do with AA/AK here?
Maybe just call down if you don't believe him. No point in betting or raising, as you will only be called by better. He probably cold called with a mid pp.
Agree with y’all, I should’ve cBet small my entire range & that is the takeaway, I won’t make that mistake again. Almost the moment I checked, I knew it was a mistake.
Mod edit: Results inside spoiler, please don't read or comment on until at least 24 hours after OP
Spoiler
I did fold
and felt like a super-nit
but I had watched this guy operate & more pressure was coming. In the back of my mind it’s always the strong player that has it when I call them down.
I actually feel better about it when someone questioned his cold call, as maybe he had Ax suited. He was pretty quick with the bet, after I checked, but did give me a funny look.
I’m no stranger to folding strong hands, but I don’t want to do it incorrectly & obviously I don’t want to set myself up to be bluffed.
Thank you folks for your help.
An example of knowing better, but not doing what you know. I’m a big proponent of telling a consistent story and a range bet would have kept them guessing.
I really really hate making mistakes, but they happen in this game. I think these discussions are very helpful. I like thinking about poker all the time.
Cold calling a 3! with Axs would be terrible. Not sure why bet large with it, as he would be way ahead or way behind. The large bet seems weird for value with anything. I understand hard to call down.
A reg cold calling a 3! probably has a mid pp and is hoping to flop a set or it will be good if you don't have a big pp.
Not going to delete the results, as it would be a big pain for you to re-type and it's been sitting here a while anyway, but as a reminder OP, wait at least 24 hours after posting a hand to reveal results. A lot of folks who look at 2+2 in the morning or after work didn't have a chance to respond before the reveal. I'll spoiler them, but most folks can't resist reading a spoiler before they post.
I fold here especially to this sizing.
Takeaway would be to consider what other hands you want to check in this situation so you don't get auto-owned.
Probably would have to be a range check then.
You could probably just bet small with your entire range as well because I guess you 3bet pretty snug here so AQ/AK will form a big part of your range.
Flop plays better as a small bet with entire range, not sure how different this would be for 3-ways.
As played I don't really think we can do much else. Your hand is extremely face up.
Theoretically, if you had AA for top set on this dry board with only one ace left, you could check it and let someone bluff at you. With AA, you would want to try to get money in on the river or something though, in case someone did have an ace.
As soon as I see one of the strongest pros coming to my table and about to sit almost directly to my left deep, I immediately take that seat before he sits down. This is a *massive* leak if you are not considering this move, imo.
Is anyone very 3betty at this table? As the first one to react to a quite small weak looking $10 open (which can be attacked by more aggro players) I would be very tempted to flat preflop and go for the ol' flat/4bet, especially at these non-short stack sizes. Otherwise, our 3betting size is a little awkward, because I'd prefer offering a poor 8:1 IO and yet that would mean a sizing of $80 which might not get action.
Our hand has quickly downgraded from a premium to extremely mediocre on the flop. 3ways, OOP, and in a WA/WB situation, I think this is a trivial flop check. Again, what are we accomplishing with a bet? Is worse calling on this flop? Is better folding? Is there really that many hands to protect our equity against? About the only thing you could argue with a small bet is perhaps getting the pro to fold now is a decent result (even though him folding indicates we were destroying him), but admittedly it may prevent sigh spots OOP to him later (but this really goes back to our huge pre-hand mistake of not moving into this seat when he came to the table).
As played, he's betting into 2 people and we would play AA like this (and sometimes AK if we're concerned about protecting our checking range, or even on super dry boards like this where I would often check). Plus I'm assuming large Ax make up a decent portion of his range coldcalling preflop. I'd just let this one go.
ETA: While there are arguments for a small cbet, a check is perfectly fine and not remotely a mistake, imo. The biggest mistake in this hand (and it's not remotely close) is not grabbing this seat as he was about to sit down at the table.
GcluelessNLnoobG
Every time I feel like it’s talking poker with friends, I am attacked for protocol. Just don’t get it. Someone looking over my shoulder and nobody else is hard to take. Someday, I’ll find a great place to talk poker.
Every time I feel like it’s talking poker with friends, I am attacked for protocol. Just don’t get it.
How difficult is it to not post results too soon?
If we were having a discussion in person IRL and you wanted honest feedback on a hand, and after explaining your hand you were about to spoil it with results, I would immediately stop you before doing so in order to provide as unbiased feedback as possible.
And you really have to stop taking every little bit of feedback as a personal attack, imo.
Gcluelessprotocol/feedbacknoobG
Feels like a very clear flop bet to me. You've got a player you perceive as bad ahead of you and a player you perceive as good behind you. A cbet makes it very difficult for the CO to call without an Ace when UTG is still in the hand. But on the other hand the flop is a dry Ace-high board and you can bet entire range expecting to get a lot of folds but there are still hands worse than KK which will call.
When did cbetting showdownable second pair OOP multiway on a clear WA/WB board become a thing? It serves little purpose, imo.
GcluelessoldskoolnoobG
As soon as I see one of the strongest pros coming to my table and about to sit almost directly to my left deep, I immediately take that seat before he sits down. This is a *massive* leak if you are not considering this move, imo.Is anyone very 3betty at this table? As the first one to react to a quite small weak looking $10 open (which can be attacked by more aggro players) I
When did cbetting showdownable second pair OOP multiway on a clear WA/WB board become a thing? It serves little purpose, imo.
GcluelessoldskoolnoobG
I'd play KK the same I would play most of my range on this board which is a small bet. In my response I alluded to us being 3-ways and perhaps that influences things but I'd still argue a small bet is preferable to check/folding. Of all the options we have, checking/folding has got to be the worst.
Every time I feel like it’s talking poker with friends, I am attacked for protocol. Just don’t get it. Someone looking over my shoulder and nobody else is hard to take. Someday, I’ll find a great place to talk poker.
I wouldn't take this personally, if anything it's advice meant to help you, let a few more people respond before you post results and it will be mostly unbiased.
I wouldn't take this personally, if anything it's advice meant to help you, let a few more people respond before you post results and it will be mostly unbiased.
Thanks for this…
If I wanted, I could literally find dozens of posts that did what I did without hindrance
But I am a hothead sometimes and I’ll try to give more attention to format even though others don’t have to.
I really wish I felt like it was meant to help me
Thanks for this…
If I wanted, I could literally find dozens of posts that did what I did without hindrance
But I am a hothead sometimes and I’ll try to give more attention to format even though others don’t have to.
I really wish I felt like it was meant to help me
When you see that, hit report. I don't read every thread, but I guarantee you that I edit out results if I see them in an OP and ask the poster not to do it again. And if I notice it in a post after OP and it's only been a few hours, I'll usually do the same, though if there have been a bunch of comments that reference the results, it's too late, so I usually give up.
It's not to pick on you, it's because results bias advice. And posters come on to 2+2 at different times. Obviously, we can't let it wait forever, as some folks only come on on the weekend, or even more occasionally than that. But we should be waiting until a full cycle of morning posters, work posters, after work posters, and night owls get a chance to take a look at it. And if discussion is still going hot and heavy after 24 hours later, we should wait for the discussion to die down.
CLIFS: Others do have to, but I don't always notice.
When did cbetting showdownable second pair OOP multiway on a clear WA/WB board become a thing? It serves little purpose, imo.
GcluelessoldskoolnoobG
Betting our whole range small on bone-dry boards with big range advantage is cool because we print money and our opponents can't do anything about it.
If I do check in this situation, then this is the checkiest hand IMO, along with AA.
Can confirm I've been told not to post results too soon.
Mods actually threatened to take away my birthday.
You have to bet the flop with a good sized bet, especially against a "good pro." The strong hand you could have is a set of aces if you check. All your other checks are going to mediocre hands. You're going to bet Ax. So a good player is going to bet at you with two napkins and know most of the time you'll fold. A small bet is essentially a check. AK knows that if the villain has an ace, they are going to call no matter what.
So a good player is going to bet at you with two napkins and know most of the time you'll fold.
FWIW, just cuz we check doesn't allow the villain behind us to bet ATC with impunity. First, it's a 3way pot and the first guy could easily be checking Ax+ to the raiser. Secondly, I'm assuming we have a tightish OMC image and we just 3bet preflop; AA easily makes up a large part of our range which we could easily check on this bone dry flop.
GcluelessNLnoobG
