1/3 8h Getting Value from Flopped Flush

I like the iso pre. On the flop I could see myself going for a small sizing, which is what I would do with a hand like AQ without a heart as well. Something like $35 maybe?

Fold pre. 56s is a bluffing hand, the very bottom of my range in the CO. With two limpers in front, and three Vs yet to act, you risk going multiway instead of heads up on the flop with a chance to bluff again. After UTG loose passive calls, MP is getting 3.2:1 pot odds to set mine. 56s mostly wins small hands and also loses to big ones to higher flushes and straights. You really don’t want either V to call.

AP, how delightful that hero raised pre! Now bet 30. Let’s hope someone has an Ax, Khx, 99, or 22.

i dont think you are deep enough to play this hand pf

as played 1/3 pot sounds good. see what happens.

If we have no FE preflop (which we mostly don't in most LLSNL games after a couple of limps) then raising non-premiums with non-deepish stacks is very meh, imo. Here we created a very bloated pot with a hand that has horrible RIO, and yet thanks to some smaller stacks involved we also created handcuffing SPRs of ~1 / ~2 / ~3 / ~4 (where basically we're going to have to smash the flop in order to continue since the next bet is often committing). So unless we thought we were often going to get this HU in position in a high SPR pot (really?) I think this is an ez overlimp.

Lol, nice flop, pokr is ez.

Noone is folding an Ax / big heart (let alone anything better) for one bet. SPRs are quite small. Prolly just bet a PSB to setup a turn shove.

GcluelessNLnoobG

We went 5ways to the flop. At significant percentages of some of the stacks with 6 high.

Gwedidn't,norwerewelikelytoo,isolateanyoneG

The problem is that's not really enough. Hands like 65s are "solver bluffs" because in a GTO field, open raises have a substantial chance to buy the blinds. Taking it down preflop is the primary goal of 3-betting a hand like 65s (where the raise is more a "bluff" like you are saying - and raising limps is closer to a 3b than most people give it credit for), with the backup plan being providing board coverage in a 3bp and being a hand that realizes very well and has comparatively good equity versus strong preflop hands.

In general, continuing with small sc in a field where you lack fold equity isn't great, especially versus shorter stacks which will further crimp your FE. I definitely prefer an overlimp.

As played, continuing for $30 or so seems good. We'd like to keep in hands that we have dead-to-rights like one pair without a heart.

Maybe it’s different for you, but my games have no rhyme or reason. Sometimes I can bet 10 pre and everyone will fold. Other times I can bet 50 pre & get 4 callers.

I’m a conservative player, but some of my biggest wins have come from getting out of line - gambling. Maybe what gg doesn’t understand is that I don’t lose anymore when things go sour. With minimum risk comes some giant wins.

Also, if everything went as planned, I’m going to win in this spot most of the time bluffing.

But yea, the old 6high argument
But we’re looking at a Hero that hasn’t shown down a hand that wasn’t a premium or 2pair +

You have your opinion gg, of which I most often agree with. But do you ever bluff? Do you simply never get out of line? I feel like if I play your way after 7 hrs, I’m lucky to win $75.

If that's actually true, I'm fine raising 65s here. Obviously getting a 5-way flop in the OP will color our perception, but also in my experience in LLSNL the percentage of the time that a raise over 2+ limps successfully buys the pot preflop is very, very low. Even getting it HU with such a raise is unusual. So your pool might differ, but I am somewhat skeptical it's as likely as you think to buy it.

Also note that, ignoring the RIO of losing flush-over-flush or straight-over-straight that makes low sc really risky, the "lose small, win big" concept works better as an overlimp, since you're risking only 1BB to go gambling.

OP I'll ask what's up with preflop, ? if you're able to explain why that's a good move and what your raising range looks like with 2 limpers in this spot maybe the rest of us could learn something

Then yeah I know you asked about postflop so I would bet 1/3 there since with the Ah out there isn't a lot that will call a larger bet. Maybe you can go 1/2 pot to target Ax with a heart

You got in a huge 15% of stacks versus the BB. Fairly large 8% of stacks versus MP. That's not a minimum risk at these stack sizes, nor is the payoff great enough when we smash ~1% of the time. Plus not to mention the horrible committing bed we're forced to lay in at these SPRs against the bigger stacks due to RIO when we're "coolered".

Basically, the smaller stacks we're playing at, and the smaller SPRs we are producing due to multiwayness (both huge properties of a typical run-of-the-mill LLSNL game), the less we should be getting out-of-line preflop.

GimoG

Also not in love with everyone else's small bet sizing on the flop. When we're committed (which we are at these SPRs) plus there are lottsa worse hands that will call big bets, then we should be bombing these spots, imo. Leave the smaller bets for larger SPRs / non-committed spots, imo.

GcluelessoutofstepwiththeforumnoobG

+1

And this is especially true thanks to the big SPR we'd have produced, where we'll have lottsa streets worth of action / board texture / etc. to use both our superior position and skillz to navigate postflop. By creating small SPRs, we obliterate both our position and skillz with speculative hands.

GcluelessSPRnoobG

Solvers don’t open limp UTG or call a limp MP. The exploit against Vs playing too loose and passive is to tighten up. I would open 56s in the CO with no limpers and passive Vs yet to act. I’d raise with 56s OTB over one limper with tight passives in the blinds. But 56s in the CO facing two limpers…I would just fold.

AP, hero wants to get as much money in the pot as possible. 4 Vs just checked to you. The only hands that call a psb are are the two sets and better flushes. Targetting Kh and Ax, you can raise 1/3 on the flop and then bet enough on the turn to set up a river shove.

I disagree that a hand like A6 no heart is calling a $100 bet, especially with multiple players left to act.

Probably overlimp > fold > raise preflop, but it's marginal enough not to make a fuss about.

I'd go even smaller on the flop; about 20. Anything bigger than a quarter pot or so will start to let Ax off the hook. You're shallow enough that you're going to be playing for stacks no matter what the action is, so really you need to decide how to react to a (check-)raise. The only hands which will call a big bet are going to be sets, KhX, better made flushes, or pair-plus-draw (and is ATo with a heart going to call?) whereas a small bet might induce something. Also you're never ever betting large with anything less than a set

I get out of line and bluff spots like this, because of the 3 quarter rule: if I throw out 75 on the flop, everyone will fold - guaranteed
Maybe this is more in line with gg’s figuring…

I win a lot of small pots in position with a variety of hands. Nobody is chopping, if I am the button. But I’m tired of defending the pre-flop raise. Some like it, some don’t.

Things don’t always work as planned. I thought the button would fold & maybe two callers. Instead, I got a crowd & flopped a flush

This thread is about getting value, but getting knocked for something I have had very much success with, comes with it. Yes, better hands call the 75, but it rarely happens. Everything in this game requires adjustments based on action.

But sometimes, I win hands so fast it’s staggering. I bet, they fold, win 30, tip 1, next hand, I bet, they fold, win 45, tip 1, next hand, etc. When nobody has much, I’m the one that bets with whatever - everyone checks, hoping someone will bet, so they can fold.

It sounds like I’m playing a loose-aggressive game, I’m not; still folding most of the time. But when I make a boat with J3 (in a similar situation) and win a huge pot, people scratch their head for days trying to figure out my play.

I just don’t think I can bluff with an overlimp. If I can’t bluff, it’s not worth playing at all. There’s usually respect when I start firing

It makes no sense to me to play this hand trying to hit my hand - as was said it’s 6high

I play a hand like this aggressively, win a small pot - but they add up, because when I’m in position I’ll do it again. Against some villains, I wouldn’t think of it, but the population looks at their hand, not the situation.

So this time I flopped the impossible & nobody is going to believe me. So in about 4 more hours, I can talk about what happened next.

Hero bets 35
Small to keep ranges wide & build multi-way action
B calls, BB calls, UTG folds, MP calls

Turn
(240) Ah9h2h - 9c
Checks to Hero?
Hero bets 90
Board pairing is concerning, but still getting value from Ax or 2pair
B calls, BB folds, MP calls

River
(510) Ah9h2h9c - 3d
Checks to Hero?

Thread kinda got sidetracked
River
Hero bet 125
Was hoping to encourage bluff-catchers and not scare anyone away. Targeting Ax, 2pair, a nine or worse flush. Should I have bet more?

Button tanks & calls with AcJh, maybe hoping his heart blocker made a difference, MP folds
Hero wins 760 pot

Was hoping for opinions on turn and river. Getting the most value out of my winning hands is an obsession.

Turn hero has 345 and pot is 240. Awkward SPR. It sucks you have only a baby flush and the board paired. Jamming gets called only by better. A small bet might attract a call from Ax. I’m ok with 90.

Check river. With two Vs still in the hand, I think you get called only by boats and better flushes. A check may induce a bluff

Now I see you posted results. Except for raising pre, I think hero played it well. It’s hard to play 56s to the river for a big pot.

I think this hand was well played. Pre-flop is a close spot but I think the raise is fine.

Jamming river feels kind of thin even if it isn’t for a large percentage of the pot. I would still do it though because 9X is out there and people will get sticky with AX particularly with a heart.

Betting 125 on the river might be better as an exploit. All-in looks a lot scarier.

I think it's a small mistake not to get all the chips in the middle here, although I generally agree with the plan to play a three street game.

The turn is probably the best place to size up a little as the heart draws will likely be more inelastic than they should be and 9x hands will get sticky. I strongly discount anyone having a boat here so the board pair is probably good news in that it adds sticky trips to the range that will call with worse. A bigger made flush that didn't raise flop is just going to stack us, and that's the cost of playing this hand for a raise preflop. Go more like $120-160 and shove the river, you'll benefit from the draws calling too big and Ax/9x suffering from "odds too good to fold" syndrome.

I think the biggest missed value here would be against hands worse than Aces up that have a heart and snap fold to any bet OTR but would call more OTT.

I felt like I needed to bet small, because it was multi-way, but this is a good point. No more heart draws on the river. Maybe 150 on the turn next time.