V overbets pot weirdly
V is a super chatty guy, never stops talking , lots of stories about the good old poker days. He played vs Matusow back in the day, someone staked him because he was a crusher, a room hired him to be a shill. I tried to ignore him and let him pester other people. It was 5 - 6 hours of constant noise from this guy,
He's made some seemingly dumb plays that don't match his chatter that he's a big time pro, but he has run up a $300 max buy to over $1200. I sit there with $700. This is a 1/2 game, the biggest game this room is running last night.
OTTH: I have A9o in the BB, There was a UTG straddle to $5, 3 callers including the loud mouthed V in CO, I complete, the UTG checks. 5 see the flop, pot = $25.
Flop = 45Ar. I didn't want to bloat the pot with a bad kicker so I checked. It checks around to V and he bets $20, I call with TPBK because I've seen V stab at unopened pots before. I'm fine with bluff catching. UTG also calls. Pot = $85.
Turn = 45AJ with 2 diamonds. It checks around. I'm feeling better about this pot.
River = 45AJA, no flush, and I check thinking it might be a good check raise situation. UTG checks, and in the middle of a yet more chatter out of V, he casually says $300 while continuing to talk non stop to the player beside him and drops 5 red chips in the pot. I've never seen an over bet this big. It's bizarro. he and the guy beside him have made big river bets before, but nothing anywhere close to > 2X pot. I've got a decent hand, with trip As and a 9 kicker.
Should I call, raise, fold?
The nits on 2+2 will tell you: just fold pre. A9o you want to raise OTB, not call multiway oop. I probably would play bingo like the hero, and then hate myself for playing flop and turn well only to face the puke river bet.
V bets 300 into 85? I just fold. You’re only beating A6-A8, A2-A3.
slight correction, I was in the big blind, not button. The table was VERY call heavy and I would absolutely not want to be OOP vs 3 or 4 others with A9.
Shrug fold. I don’t think it’s really even close.
"Oh I'm just casually betting more than 3x pot, I'm not really thinking about it though, probably I made some type of mistake while chatting to this guy next to me, no big deal"
If we call, we're going to see AJ most of the time.
Yes, the casualness is a tell. Easy fold to 4x pot. Should be a boat.
When 2 players called almost post on the ace high flop, it is likely someone has an ace. He is hoping someone can't fold trips or has a lower boat.
My only experience in a similar situation - villain was bluffing with trash. I wasn’t in the hand, but I remember wondering how he could be so relaxed. Of course he showed, and was quite proud of himself.
That said, it makes no sense to call this bet. You only have 25 invested, and it’s a big risk.
The turn is problematic for a fold, because villain would have bet a jack or AJ most likely. If I’m villain, I’m figuring nobody has much with all the checking. This bet doesn’t seem like it expects to be called, wouldn’t he bet smaller with value. It really looks like a guy buying the pot, ready to flip over 72o.
I would feel much better about folding if you had challenged villain at some point. I don’t know if you’re beat, but I promise you villain doesn’t expect you to have the hand you’ve got.
The population at low stakes are never bluffing with a play like this, but this guy seems like an outlier. I don’t think he’s targeting a strong hand, he thinks nobody has anything. A strong hand would be looking for thin value, not making a ridiculous over-bet.
It might be hard to stomach, if villain does turn over AJ and is ready to give you a few lessons. It’s no fun losing 300 to a mouthy player.
If I interpret everything the way you do, I’m going to call, even though it makes no sense. I think he’s fos too often with this action. Win or lose, I’m probably going to switch tables. Why play with a guy like that.
Others will give you the logical advice; fold.
But taking chances is part of this game. Big talkers are trying to impress and are subject to FPS. If v had bet the turn, I would fold for sure.
Which is worse:
You fold and villain shows JT
You call and villain shows AJ
I likely play tighter than all the people pushing the logical move. So, sorry if it costs us 300. We’ll get it back.
Probably folding my entire range here.
I don't know if I get here this way with any boats. Would raise JJ/AJ/AA preflop. Would lead or checkraise a set or aces up on the flop.
If you somehow had a boat, it might be a fold here, yes. Trips, 9 kicker is about the best hand you can have here that is not a boat.
A bluff has to go through 80% of the time to be profitable for him. If he doesn't have an ace, it is probably one of two players who called the flop does have one and made trips. Any kind of act while he is overbetting is a tell he has close to the nuts. That he is maybe a pro makes it more of a fold.
That he was a shill is an indication of a marginal pro. If he is a pro, he probably is not a real good one playing 1/2. He could be an amateur who can beat 1/2 or loses less at it than higher stakes he played.
OK, almost everyone agrees this is an easy fold, but this story has a "WAIT, THERE'S MORE" to it.
As I'm tanking way too long thinking all the stuff that's been said here, V2 gets frustrated and asks the dealer where the action is. Dealer says action is to me, bet is $300.
V1 seems genuinely confused and an argument begins between dealer and V1 about what the bet is. V1 says he put $25 out but dealer insists he heard $300. I and 3 other players say they heard 300 as well. V1 is getting angry and loud saying " but 300 makes no F###ing sense."
My biggest mistake was not calling for the floor at that point.
A player not in the hand says he thinks V1 may have said 300 as part of whatever story he was sharing at the time. They argue about that and rehash the story while I'm watching V1 who seems scared.
what do I do now?
1. still fold
2. accept that 25 is the bet and call
3. raise over the 25
4. insist 300 was announced, heard by others, and call
5. raise over the 300
The dealer or the villain was responsible for calling the floor, not the hero. Still, I would let V take his bet back. I’d raise to 75 over Vs 25. Vs is going to still fume, but heros bet is honest. You’re there to have fun in a competitive game, not fleece opponents for a dealer’s mistake.
Probably better to fold preflop, but I'd be tempted to call for 2 and hope we hit 2 pair or 99x.
Calling 20 into 25 is very dicey on the flop, esp. with the entire table to act after you. Betting 10 or 15 and getting raised is much cheaper/easier. Even getting calls isn't bad, as you can check most turns with a lot of good hands.
I think the initial plan to x/r river is bad. Again, your hand mostly wants to just bet or x/c. Esp. as the most likely person to bet again is the BTN and you don't know if he limped a bigger A or has a set ... and then you'll have an extra player behind you.
WTF was the story ... did the words 300 fit into it? Was there any pause? Does he often talk while betting? Just generally how likely is this story that he randomly said 300 around the same time he put chips out to be true?
I can see it being a mistake, and he'd have to have practiced this a few times to get the scared look down ... BUT I don't think most people won't realize the dealer said 300.
The "getting angry" part and wanting people to act is also a common weakness tell, but could be a reverse tell here as he sees you tanking. Esp. with the request for the bet to be $25.
Not really sure what to do, I'd probably think about trying to nudging the bet to be $25 and then just call. This is going to be more difficult with the guy behind you.
I think having the bet be 25 and raising it has to be the worst option. Significantly worse than the plan to do it initially, and as above I don't like that.
Even if I was pretty sure he wasn't doing reverse tells, our hand doesn't really want to hero call $300 (if he turns over AT you'll hate life) ... and arguing it should be a $300 bet and then raising is a level of street poker I'm not at.
WTF was the story ... did the words 300 fit into it? Was there any pause? Does he often talk while betting? Just generally how likely is this story that he randomly said 300 around the same time he put chips out to be true?I can see it being a mistake, and he'd have to have practiced this a few times to get the scared look down ... BUT I don't think most people won't realize th
I don't know WTF the story was. He had been droning on for so long I had tuned him out. As V1 and another player argued about the story, V1 said the only number he had used was 2,xxx but eventually, after more debate, V1 got around to admitting that he had said 300 but it was in reference to blah blah blah and not a bet he was going to be held to.
The "getting angry" part and wanting people to act is also a common weakness tell, but could be a reverse tell here as he sees you tanking. Esp. with the request for the bet to be $25.
yes, V2 was frustrated and IMO just wanted to get on to the next hand. After the hand played out he showed KQo and complained about never hitting the flop.
I think having the bet be 25 and raising it has to be the worst option. Significantly worse than the plan to do it initially, and as above I don't like that.
well, I'm not that good of a player. I did the worse thing. didn't fight the ruling that the bet was 25 and then I raised it to 75. V2 folded, V1 called with A6.
disagree. I'm in the hand and there is lots of angry debate as to what should happen. I really think Dealer should have called floor rather than engage in such a debate.
Still, I would let V take his bet back. I’d raise to 75 over Vs 25. Vs is going to still fume, but heros bet is honest. You’re there to have fun in a competitive game, not fleece opponents for a dealer’s mistake.
You win the coveted ATTABOY award of the day. I raised to 75, V1 called and showed A6.
You are absolutely right that it would be a scum dog move to fight for the 300 if I believed it was a genuine mistake. I wish I was a better person and had thought that after the hand was over. But once I got paid, I started ruminating on how much fun it would have been to get V1 to STFU by shoving AI once I was convinced he was not very strong.
As it was, his new story was to explain the whole story of this hand over and over as if none of us had been there to see it. Some people play poker to win money. Some play to have fun. Some play to have an audience who can't get away from their monologue.
25 years of poker in casinos and that is the first time I've ever run into that situation, where dealer and multiple players were honestly believing the a Villain with verbal diarrhea had announced a bet far larger than his chip action.
just fold not close if he bluffed you good for him. not worth it.
id bet the river small, like 1/3 pot. pretty easy fold to a river raise.
I am glad it worked out OK, but I would call the floor for a ruling of what the bet was. It is real read-based, but I would probably flat call the 25. If he had just bet 25 without saying anything, I would probably make it like 125, as lower trips wouldn't want to fold.
Fold or raise pre, probably fold. You played it to trap and now here's your bed you have to lay in. This is why you don't play RIO hands OOP in lol limped pots.
Also lol @ V description.
I’m a pretty lucky player and I would have gotten his entire stack - glad you didn’t fold
PRE - In theory we should be playing raise-or-fold in the BB when the straddle is on. I don't mind flatting with A9o if we think straddle isn't squeezing enough.
FLOP - I'd probably lead out for a small bet size, but I don't hate check-calling. I don't love that V is betting 80% pot into multiple people who could all be doing what you're doing.
TURN - checking is fine. I might fold to another bet once we see another opponent over-call on the flop.
RIVER - when the turn checks through, I'd probably just lead out for 1/2 pot.
As played, when V says "$300" but only puts out $25, I hope I'd have the presence of mind to clarify the bet. Definitely not calling $300 here, but I'd probably tank a while, wondering if V has worse AX.
When he says it's only $25, I'd like to see the floor get called over. If neither he nor the dealer called the floor, I probably would.
Most, if not all states' gambling laws prohibit casinos from forcing players to put money into the pot. The casino can ban V if you call and he doesn't put the other $275 in, but they can't force him to pay off the bet.
I wouldn't want to sit there and negotiate with V over what the bet size is or should be. I'm not going to argue with him. I'd just want the floor to make a decision.
If the floor's decision is that the bet is $300, and I wanted to call, I'd wait until V put the rest of the money into the pot. If he refused, I'd call him out on it, put $25 in, and refuse to put the other $275 in, whether he had the best hand or not.
If the floor's decision is that the bet is only $25, I'd just call. I wouldn't raise. I've seen too many angles. A guy who's comfortable talking non-stop while in a hand and specifically while making a bet is more likely to be capable of feigning fear while actually hoping we'll call off a 3x over-bet.
All that said, if he made it $25, that seems more like Jx than some AX combo that's boated up, or even just better than ours. Still not sure I'd raise, simply because I don't think we can get called by a worse hand, but we could get bluffed off the best hand if he 3B's.
Excellent thought process, docvail. I have a few clarifications.
Very standard at this table, especially vs 4 players if you want to have any hope of weeding down the field.
when V says "$300" but only puts out $25, I hope I'd have the presence of mind to clarify the bet.
Unfortunately it has become common in this room that river bets are a single or few chips that don't match the verbal bet. I wish they would put a stop to that.
I'd ask V to put the rest of the money into the pot. If he refused, I'd call him out on it, put $25 in, and refuse to put the other $275 in, whether he had the best hand or not. Again, I'd want the floor present as this was all happening, to be sure the floor saw the cleat angle happening. V would be free-rolling us.
Brilliant. Very clever. I wish I had thought of that in the heat of battle.
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I've seen people do an all in with a small handful of chips but never this type of thing where it's a big bet for less than full stack... or if they do, they would follow up by putting the rest of the chips in soon after. There is a placard now in most rooms the dealer throws out for allins, but in this hand there is nothing for the cameras to see.
I would definitely be asking for the floor to make a ruling, especially since this player seems like the type who will take advantage of loose rules.
Excellent thought process, docvail. I have a few clarifications. Very standard at this table, especially vs 4 players if you want to have any hope of weeding down the field. Unfortunately it has become common in this room that river bets are a single or few chips that don't match the verbal bet. I wish they would put a stop to that. Brilliant. Very clever. I wish I had t
The point about not liking the big flop bet is that one of our other opponents could have a better AX combo and over-call behind us.
Even if the practice of putting out fewer chips than verbalized is common, I'd still want to clarify and confirm the bet size before I act.
I probably wouldn't necessarily ask an opponent to put the full amount in under normal circumstances, unless I suspected V of being shifty. If they say they're all in, I'll sometimes ask for a count, which will prompt the dealer to ask the opponent to push their stack in, at which point I'll just call if that was my intention.
If someone gets upset, I'll explain why I did what I did, but it's rarely happened.
