Small pot vs a chatty rec

no point betting turn if you arent going to overbet river.

i dislike the flop check, you should probably be looking to bluff 3 streets on clean runouts here. on turn/river bricks the range of cold calling hands that can call three streets of good sized bets on this board is practically none.

I'm confused. Did you bet the turn? You say V calls.

Putting V on a pair of Qs because he says he got there is bad. V either hit something mega like a straight and wants to make you look stupid after river, or far more likely he has squat.

Assuming you bet turn, you've repped something decent and I'm betting river if V checks and folding if V bets.

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How sticky is V postflop? What do you think his preflop limp-call range? Against a passive V, I’m just checking down the whole hand.

H bets $100.
V says really you have a flush? And folds his Q10 face up.

I bet the turn, sizing it so it would be easy to call with plans of bluffing big on the river. I also thought he might raise off if he was strong like a straight. He called and I put him on a pair of queens. And on the river I decided to make a bet big enough to get a pair of Kings to fold. I thought 100 into 80 was the right size.

I thought about calling this thread “trying new things hoping to get new results” but was afraid that title might influence readers.

I never bluff like this. A normal bluff for me is a cbet and then I give up on later streets. Especially on a board like this where a straight comes in on turn, possibly giving V a pair to go along with a draw and then a flush completing river yuk!

I haven’t been running well for a time. One of the things I notice is I don’t bluff often. I don’t feel like I can get bluffs through. And I’m not getting called when I value bet often enough either. I want to try new things but don’t know what works. Any thoughts?

I mean, we've all had those sessions when it seems like all our bluffs get snapped off and none of our value bets get called.

I think there's often an unfortunate reality of poker, that prevents our opponents from having nutted hands when we have nutted hands. Hard for them to call with a busted flush draw when we barrel off after turning a boat. Hard for us to get a bluff through when we have a busted draw and they turned trips.

The solution is putting in more volume, and seeking lines that are less face up. If you're always betting big on the flop or turn with thick but vulnerable value, and not ranging opponents effectively when bluffing, yeah, you're probably not going to have much of a win rate.

OP - how were you ranging V on the river?

PRE - Raising A8s over a limper and a LP call might be too wide. You can just fold. If you're going to raise, understand that you're bluffing, and you want folds. Go bigger than $20. Make it $25 at least. Make it $30. We don't mind taking it down pre-flop / pre-rake with what is basically a trash hand.

FLOP - What do you think it means when V says anything at all when he checks? I'd generally view it as weakness. If he had a big hand and wanted us to bet, he wouldn't say $hlt. When he checks and gives us a little speech, I'd think he's hoping we don't bet.

That doesn't necessarily mean he's planning to fold if we do bet. We may have to barrel.

If you're not comfortable c-betting the KJ3 two-tone flop and barreling turn with ace-rag, then don't raise pre with ace-rag, or just c-bet when you flop a draw to the nuts, and otherwise just check-back/fold.

TURN - Do you think he really "got there"? Same reasoning as above, when they make strong hand statements, they're usually not all that strong. At best, he's going to have 2P here.

What does a 1/2 pot bet accomplish after we check back flop? What do you think you're repping for value? What's your plan if V check-raises? (You should fold.)

What was your plan for the river, before you saw it? Barrel off on a brick, or give up? What if the river is an ace?

I'd probably bomb it on the turn, when he's yakking away. Alternatively, I'd just check it back again, and let him take it if he stabs at it on the river, or I'd over-bet if he checks again.

RIVER - What hands are you targeting to fold here? We lose to everything, and don't block much of anything.

When V is trying to stop us from betting flop and turn, but he doesn't bet turn, yet he calls our delayed c-bet, I'd think he either has some piece of the board, or he's on a draw. The most obvious draw gets there on the river. If we're just trying to fold out his thin value now that the flush comes in, I'd think a small over-bet gets the job done.

Docvail I knew you would say to raise bigger pre. In earlier hands I raised larger and I kept getting the same two callers. I thought if I sized down, then I would get the same result.

What did I range V on the turn/what was my plan? I put him on a pair of Queens Q10 or Q9. I wanted a call on the turn, and I was going to size up for a bluff on the river. If an A, 10, 9 or another queen came I would change plans. With a 9 or Q I would give up and let V have it. An A I would check my SDV and hope for the best. A 10, I like to bet small for value here, 1/3 or 1/4 pot. Could I get more value here? With the range I gave V this would give him the idiot straight or two pair. And of course folding if I face a check raise on the turn.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to be overly harsh in critiquing your line. More trying to understand your thought process, how you viewed his speech-play, how you ranged him, etc.

It can be difficult to play A2s-ATs post flop. I don't hate the raise from the BTN, but it's important to think about what we're trying to accomplish with our sizing pre, and our opponents' ranges.

Like, here, when there are two limpers, a $20 raise isn't likely to make both fold. I'd bet V's range when he over-limps is a tad stronger than when he open-limps. I'd also bet he has some over-limp-3B's in his arsenal.

Low stakes opponents tend to be sticky pre-flop. I'd think we'd need to make it $25-$30 to make them both fold pre. When we use a raise size that isn't likely to take it down pre, I'd want a read that our opponents are going to over-fold to post-flop aggression.

Obviously the speech-play adds a wrinkle, but as a general rule I'd assume it's meant to manipulate us, and is usually a sign of weakness. Most opponents, even the chatty ones, aren't going to have the presence of mind in-game to say they have a good draw if they flopped 2P or a set.

When we have no pair, and no real draw, I think we should c-bet the flop. If we check back, we're mostly just repping draws.

The problem is that a lot of low stakes opponents won't give us credit for drilling a gut-shot. And they won't necessarily believe we'll raise pre with hands like QT that flop an OESD on KJX.

They assume we'd c-bet the flop with our draws when we're HU and IP as the PFR. So V isn't likely to think we have AT on the turn, especially not when we only bet 1/2 pot. I'd think the 1/2 pot turn bet would be fine if we c-bet the flop.

When the FDFD comes in on the river, I'd hate it. We have nothing. We beat nothing. We block nothing. And we rep nothing. If we had the FDFD, we'd have c-bet the flop.

So, I think a better line would be bigger raise pre, 1/3-1/2 pot c-bet on flop, 1/2 pot on turn, and bomb river.

Alternatively, as played, I think a flop 1/2 pot c-bet on the two-tone / two-Broadway board works better than a check back. When we check back, I think we should either go very big on the turn, or just check it back.

If we check back turn and the river is a brick, and he checks to us again, I'd go for an over-bet. If he leads into us, I'd fold. When it brings in the flush, I wouldn't try to rep it after checking back flop, and with no flush suit cards in our hand.

Going back to your reads - I wouldn't necessarily assume opponents view us as good or bad, loose or tight, based on being at the table with us for a short time. What they tend to remember is how frequently we raise or 3B pre, and if it's a lot, they'll pay attention to the hands we show down, to see how light we're raising.