River straight vs triple barrel – call or XR for value?
€2/€5 Live Cash. Hero: BB, 320€ effective
Villain: MP, covers (1,000€+), unknown reg, appears fairly tight (~15% open range)
Preflop:
Villain opens MP to 15€ (3x)
Hero BB calls with 5♣6♣
Flop (35€): 9♠ 7♣ 4♥
Hero checks
Villain bets 18€
Hero calls
Turn (71€): 3♦
Hero completes straight draw and checks
Villain bets 35€
Hero calls
River (141€): 9♦ (pairs the top card)
Hero checks
Villain bets 90€ (~66% pot)
Hero raises to 240€
Villain ????
Hand Discussion:
Main decision point is river.
Villain is a standard MP opener (~15% range) and barrels three streets on a fairly connected board.
My thought process:
Villain’s value range seems to be mostly overpairs (TT–AA) and 9x
Some sets / boats possible (77, 44, 99). Although can't see him OR from MP 44 or 77
A lot of his earlier range is overcards (AQ, AK, KQ, etc.)
I assumed those overpairs would fold a decent portion vs a river raise on a paired board
So I went for a value raise targeting overpairs and non-9x holdings
Questions:
Is river raise standard here, or should this mostly be a call vs triple barrel from a tight opener?
Is my assumption about villain’s river betting range being “too wide” realistic, or is it usually much more value-heavy in practice[?
How do you balance straight hands like this between call vs raise in live pool environments?
7 Replies
Pre. Fold. I know price is good, but Villain is tight and SCs play terribly out of position.
Flop: Call seems good, unless you think you have good fold equity to a raise
Turn: I think its player specific between call and raise here
River: Yeah I think a thin value raise is good
Semi-grunch:
PRE - I mean...we're only starting out 64BB's deep. Just fold. If you can't fold, raise. Even from MP, V should have some RFI-folds, and he should be folding a ton when you're this shallow, because he's not deep enough to set-mine if we 3B.
FLOP - Yeah, okay, call when we flop the OESD with the BDFD. But did you consider x/r'ing?
Like, we don't know the future. The turn could be a brick, and he may bomb it. If we can get him to fold some hands now, on this board that would mostly seem to favor our range more than his, it's a huge victory.
Even if he calls, we have the OESD and the BDFD. We have a ton of equity. We just don't have any showdown value, so we should be considering ways we could win this hand that don't necessarily involve drilling one of our draws on the turn.
TURN - Must be nice to luckbox like this. Did you consider donking?
Here's the thing - V's half-pot c-bet on the flop is fairly standard as a range bet when he's IP and HU as the PFR in a SRP. But he could be checking back this turn card a lot with his SDV hands. He won't always barrel, and if he does, it may be for a small size, because we started out so short. Also, a donk generates much less fold equity than a x/r, especially a turn x/r.
When he c-bets 1/2 pot on flop and barrels for 1/2 pot on turn, I'd think he's just doing this with all his draws, all his SDV, and all his thin value. His sets would size up on the turn. I don't care if he's a reg / pro. Even the best regs are going to have sizing tells at these stakes, on boards where there are lots of draws possible.
With the range I'd be giving him, I wouldn't check-raise. I'd just flat call. But I'd have preferred to donk. Even if we used the same half-pot size, at least we'd have the betting lead getting to the river, so we could continue betting for value.
RIVER - that's probably the worst card in the deck for us to donk or check-raise after turning a set. I'd just check again, and pray he bets big.
When he bets 60% pot, I wouldn't think he's very strong at all. Maybe he has trip 9's. Occasionally maybe he flopped a set or top 2P and rivered a boat, but I really doubt it when he bets 1/2 pot on flop and turn. I'd think his range is mostly over-pairs for value, and just complete air.
I would definitely raise. I would never flat call. At our starting stack depth, I'd just jam, targeting his non-believing over-pairs and befuddled trips.
Questions:
Is river raise standard here, or should this mostly be a call vs triple barrel from a tight opener?
It's not standard. It's mandatory, IMO. I don't care what our read is. His line looks weak AF and we just always have the best hand, IMO. At a minimum, we have the best hand we'll ever have when we don't x/r flop.
Is my assumption about villain’s river betting range being “too wide” realistic, or is it usually much more value-heavy in practice?
I'm not positive what range you were giving him based on what you wrote in your OP. I disagree that he wouldn't RFI with 77 or 44 pre, but I don't think he's betting 1/2 pot on the flop with bottom or middle set. If he's got quads, he's got quads. It's one combo, compared to 30 combos of TT-AA, and a bazillion combos of unpaired over-cards, not to mention the six combos of 88 and six combos of 66 / 55 that might take this line.
I just don't think he has anywhere near enough boats in his range to keep me from x-jamming river, even knowing he's probably not calling more than 1/2 the time.
How do you balance straight hands like this between call vs raise in live pool environments?
Balance shmalance. Who gives a crap? It's low stakes. Play exploitatively. There's no reason to think about being balanced when we have a hand that can raise for value and there's not much if any reason to just call.
I think you may be asking what our bluffs would be here. We could have a hand like 88, 87s, 76s, 75s, 66, 55, 64s, 54s, 53s, 43s, etc. Basically, when we check-raise the river as a bluff, we'd usually be doing it with a hand that has some showdown value, so we can sometimes win if V checks back, but can't win if V bets for value and we call.
Would I x/r the river with all of those hands? No, probably not, because I would have x/r'd the flop with some of them, and donked turn with some of them, and block-bet the river with some of them. The one hand I might x/r on the river would be 88, because it's the one I'd be least likely to x/r or donk on an earlier street, but I'd be pretty sure it doesn't have enough SDV vs V's value range, and it blocks a lot of 98s combos.
Fold preflop. Raise flop (this board is good for your range). Raise turn.
Preflop is OK for 3x, I might consider 3betting a fair bit here too, obviously you can fold your 6-high as well if you like.
Flop feels like the perfect donk spot. This is a player who is going to be biased towards overcards and big pairs, this flop won't hit him much. The donk will get immediate folds from the overcards a huge amount of the time and I wouldn't expect him to cbet all that often.
When he does cbet you can check-raise flop for similar reasons except that now you can be certain of getting rid of the overcards and you'll put pressure on the overpairs.
Again, check-raise the turn; do you expect the overpairs to bet three streets? He's not folding an overpair for 64BB but may well check back the river.
River raise is very very thin. Do we really expect to get called by anything weaker than A9, given we have all the boats not to mention the straight, and all 9x? Again I feel even now the river could have been a donk spot, but check-raise feels almost like an overplay now
Pre is fine when 100bb deep. Flop is fine. Turn is a donk, as played always shoving river.
I don’t mind defending with this hand.
The flop is why you play this hand - villain’s range is paint, he likely missed on the flop.
You hit your hand on the turn, now bet it. You want the lead here. I really dislike a check-raise for value as people fold to this line. If you bet & get raised - I would call and lead again on the river.
It’s funny to me that novice players out play regs simply by betting when they hit their hand - experienced players level themselves often.
I would not consider it bad, the way you played it. I would have had trouble checking that river, but villain did keep barreling. I’m sure he wished he checked behind.
If v calls the river - I give you A+
Good reads and maximum value.
If v folds the river - it’s more like a C
Left money on the table
Bottom line:
You played a hand that should be folded pre-flop and the board loved you. Hard to mess this one up too bad.
You turned the stone-cold nuggets and waited before getting the money in. The only question you should be asking is what body part you should have punched yourself in if Villain didn't barrel off the river for you.
By the way, if you lost this hand it's mostly a cooler, since V is likely not folding at any point, but you did let him get there cheap. The mere fact that he three-barrelled in the first place increases the frequency of quads/boats in his range and decreases the likelihood that he's just cranking off with a hand like JJ.