$1/2 flopped the joint OOP - line check

PRE - you'll probably be told it's too wide to open QTs from EP, but not by me.

FLOP - you could mini-tank and c-bet small, like $7. Checking is also fine. It's just hard to expect someone to start firing at it. You're basically praying someone has the Jd.

TURN - I think V has the Jd. Guessing J9dd or JdJx. That, or he flopped 2P or a set and he's betting to deny equity from single diamond hands. I wouldn't necessarily expect him to continue betting for a large size after we call flop, but here we are.

I like the min-click, I think. I suppose it might look nutted, unless he thinks we're FOS, or he's just sticky / stubborn.

Not sure if this is right, but my vague sense of things is that many players are likely to just go with almost any flush when the flush comes in on a later street, but when it's a monotone flop, most players are able to release a low flush facing mounting pressure.

With the A, K, Q, T, and 8 of diamonds accounted for, V's most likely flushes are going to be 7-high or lower. If he doesn't have the Jd in his hand, it's easier for us to have QJdd. I'm just pointing it out because he may not think we're opening from EP with QTs or Q9s.

Then again, we're going to have all the AA/KK/AK, as well as a fair bit of AXo with 1 diamond, like AxQd and AxJd.

I dunno. You could be coolering him, or you could be letting him off the hook. I think it's less about your exact line, and more about how sticky he is with his value.

Your turn rasise is not consistent. Since turn is a blank it more or less says: "Hey just kidding about the flop check call, I actually have a monster". Now wether villain reads it is another matter.

I might just flat turn and then lead river big (possibly over bet jam), and make him think we are full of ****, and he looks us up with Ax or whatever.

Why are we slowplaying flop? Just because we flop the nuts???
Flop is either bet or check/raise not check/call imho. Especially when V bets so huge.
x/r to like 100, then stick it in on the turn.

The turn I'm not sure if I like the sizing.

On monotone board, there's lots of bad card, pairing up, the 4th suit. It's not like we have the straightflush or quads or boats.

Guy is telling you he has a big hand or a big draw, just get the money in before bad cards hit.

Agreed, probably is just a bet.

Pre is fine. As played we probably have to play turn like this but not the biggest fan of the line overall.

I don't mind it. We can't expect to stack our opponent every time we flop the nuts, but this line successfully elicits some bets from many weaker hands including bluffs. Plus it protects your checking range for future hands vs this opponent.

This is one of those spots where having 1 card makes or blocks the nuts and if we have that card it can be really hard to extract max value from our opponent, unless he has the 2nd nuts and just can't release.

Like, what are the odds V has JXdd and is just going broke with it when we raise from EP and check-raise a chunky flop bet in a multi-way pot on AK8ddd? The best hand he can have is J9dd. What does he think we have if we x/r? 76dd? If he has a lower flush than JXdd, is he really going to stack off here?

When he bets big on the flop, he can't really call a raise, so raising doesn't seem to make a ton of sense. We could be x/c'ing with sets and 2P praying to boat up, or AxQd praying for another diamond, or just praying he checks back the turn. We're probably not x/r'ing with those hands.

You expect all the flushes to fold? Sets not folding, 2pairs not folding. AJ/9 with Jd/9d probably not folding.

Adding to the above, if hero just had AxQd here, we'd be arguing over whether or not V folds a J-high flush to a flop x/r.

We'd probably say JTdd isn't folding, because we're only repping Q9dd and we look FOS. But is V calling with T9dd or worse, when we could have QJdd?

You should see my point. It's a spot where bluffs are suicidal, so a raise looks nutted and V will over-fold, even with very strong hands

I think you're wildly overestimating V's continue range when he stabs full pot into two opponents, on a monotone board, and gets check raised.

I would snap fold every flush that isn't J high. When hero has QTdd, there aren't many JXdd combos I could have, and the worse my kicker, the easier it is for me to be beat, because my opponent can have more reasonable and better combos.

Like, if I have J7dd, my opponent can have QT, Q9, or Q8. If I have J9, he has one less of those combos. I might even fold J9dd to a x/r.

I may continue with sets. Probably not with 2P.

Hero raised pre from EP. V called on the BTN. The board is AK8ddd. How many sets is he going to have here? Probably just 88. How many 2P combos does he have? Maybe just A8s? He can't even beat AK.

I might actually fold 88 here. Hero can have AA/KK or a flopped flush.

I'm never calling with AxJd or Ax9d. That's insane.

What would our bluffs be here? Like I said above, with just the Qd in our hand, we probably still wouldn't raise a PSB on the flop.

Couple quick thoughts:

Pre: against this monkey filled line up QTdd is way up in my RFI range even from EP.

Post: I believe if V has a smaller flush, a set or A’s up the money is going in and one of us gets coolered. We’re only ~160 bb to start. Not real concerned either way in these scenarios. Really question how to max value when V is drawing thin to dead.

No, not because we flop the nuts. If I have 88 and the flop was 832, or AXdd and the flop is JT3ddd I would cbet as V has a realistic calling range in both scenarios AND because H’s PFR range doesn’t just smash the **** out of the board. On monotone AK8 when I holding the QT flush V has very few hands that can call a cbet. This is assuming he can’t have AA, KK or AK at any meaningful clip.

Not saying this is a smart line of thinking but it’s the one I was using.

One last point - I’ve probably minclicked like 2-3 times in 4k hrs of live play. I see it on here a lot and am trying to find places to work it in.

The check-raise is for bluffing, not value. I know it’s simplified thinking, but I’m not using that line when I’m trying to drag villain to showdown with value.

That said, the flop is where people play games jockeying around for info. So, I would bump the flop and lead the turn. But there’s no reason for you to not bet the flop yourself.

OOP with the nuts, you need the initiative or you will likely lose a street of value. In most cases, nobody gives you credit for the hand you have (happens 1 out of 119 flops), they think you’re drawing.

The turn is where things get real and the floaters give up. As Hitchens mentioned, the way you played this hand let villain off the hook, unless he’s oblivious. I would rather call the turn and donk the river.

Major points in my mind:
With a value hand OOP, retake the betting lead as soon as possible. You can’t be checking & giving away FreeCards.
With a monster, bet your hand - don’t level yourself into thinking everyone will fold, they won’t —— unless you check-raise

Lead the flop about the size the other guy bet or x/r it. X/r the turn larger. I don't like the click it back. You need to build the pot more, and there can be river cards so you don't have the nuts or may kill your action. Trying to slow play this too much.

I would open this hand preflop in a typical 1/2 game where you get multiple callers and rarely get 3!. Would probably open fold it in a 2/5 game.

You're not wrong. My understanding is that the term original meant flopping the nut straight. I think the "joint" was meant to evoke an elbow or knee connecting the upper and lower limb as analogous to connecting the two cards in our hand with the three on board. But people started using it to simply mean flopping the nuts.

Depends on how you interpret this:

My observation of Asian guys in their 60's is that they tend to conform to one of a few molds:

1. fairly tight pre / semi-MUBSy post.

2. super tight pre / super-sticky post.

3. loose-passive pre / sticky or MUBSy post depending on how they're running and how face-up their opponent appears given the action.

If this V is one of those types, and gets here with J9dd or worse XXdd, he's not super-tight pre. He'll either be MUBSy post and over-fold to aggression, or he'll skew sticky or MUBSy depending on his mood and how face-up hero's action is.

If he's super-tight pre, he doesn't have a lower flush, he's got 88. He may or may not be able to fold to aggression with bottom set on a monotone board. I don't care how sticky an opponent is. When the board is AK8 monotone and the PFR is blasting off, even the stickiest of opponents can find a fold with bottom set.

Not sure we need to dive too deep into the playing habits of 60's Asian men to agree that any reasonably competent opponent is likely to assign the PFR a range that will be nutted when he's shoveling money into the pot on this board.

I can be fairly sticky post-flop. If action checked to me, and I potted it on this flop, multi-way, and the PFR x/r'd me, I'd snap fold A8s and worse. I'd be hating life with J9dd and 88. If I called and the PFR barreled on a brick, I hope I'd see it as a trivial fold.

You don't think V can get away from a lower flush, 88, or AK/A8 after he pots it on the flop, multi-way, and we x/r, on this board? In that case, why not just come out and c-bet the flop for a chunky size, and then keep betting?

You're OOP. It's hard to maximize value in a spot like this. V has to have a strong hand AND not believe we have a better hand. The problem is that we not only have the nuts, we also have all the other strong hands in our range as the PFR in EP, and V is fairly capped as a PFC on the BTN.

It seems like your real question is how to extract value from all his less strong hands, the ones that have no chance of improving to a nutted hand. Not sure what they'd be. Maybe Ax9d, or some 1P + Broadway draw, like KJ/KT.

I don't think he's got many of those hands when he pots it on the flop. So the question becomes somewhat moot at that point. We should shift to extracting value from the top of his range.

If we wanted to target the bottom of his range, we could just c-bet flop really small, 25% pot or less, to squeeze a smidge of value from hands that are drawing dead.

That's somewhat why I said we could c-bet $7. He may flat call with those hands, and may raise with all his strongest hands.

You need to try to get the money in. The main thing is to get stacks in when he has a flush or set. Betting small is really bad.