1/2: KK facing limp reraise

After the 3-bet, I think all 3 options have merit. We know that limp reraise is so often AA/KK, and we obviously block KK.

I think fold may be best, but I am never finding it. I think I call in position here, but 4-bet is fine and I think small is good.

Flop: Horrible flop. check back
Turn: Insta fold, as you say we beat nothing

I would flat call the 3!

Could call small turn bet with OESD. Losing to AA/QQ/JJ/TT/AK. Did she show and you were ahead?

Depends on table, but raise to 10xBB at one limper seems big and maybe a bet size tell.

Grunch:

PRE - that UTG limp-3B from a matronly lady is usually going to be AA. If there is a case to be made for folding KK pre, this is it. I definitely wouldn't 4B.

FLOP - puke indeed. We now beat...AK?

I hate how we got here. I'd hate this flop.

She might not x/r if we bet small, so if we're thinking about it, we might bet small, praying she doesn't x/r or donk huge on turn. We might make it $25 or $50, at most.

But really, in game, I probably wouldn't find that line. I'd probably just check back and pray the turn is a K. I doubt many people are going to c-bet KK here.

TURN - "aces are good" and fold.

Questions:

1. Preflop: Is the $120 click-back a mistake? Better to flat or 4-bet bigger? I was literally terrified of the limp reraised pot but flatting would keep me in the dark and 4betting bigger may get some QQ/JJ/AK type hands to fold

2. Flop: Is checking back KK on QJ4r standard here?

1. Yes it's a mistake. Flat call IP and evaluate / play some poker post flop with an under-repped hand versus a face up hand.

2. No. C-betting small with our entire range in a 4BP as the 4B'er is standard, at least in theory.

In practice, I'd say we should put her on exactly AA and pray she doesn't like this flop any more than we do, and c-bet small as a semi-bluff / stop bet, to discourage her from bombing turns that give us additional equity.

All that said, it's easy to find the flop semi-bluff when discussing this hand on the Internet and seeing the turn T that gives us the OESD. Most of us, myself included, would probably just check back and curse ourselves for 4B'ing a UTG limp-3B from Aunt Mary.

I somewhat suspect the reveal will be eyebrow-raising. But we should probably ignore the result in favor of using solid reasoning in game.

The old rule of thumb was that you don't fold KK pf unless you know the villain has aces. And while the villain is an older woman and is UTG, it still isn't enough to convince to fold pf. If the villain had only limped in or call pf for the last couple of hours, I could talk myself into a fold. Otherwise, I call.

The flop sucks for us. Check behind. Turn is even worse, easy fold.

Limp re-raise from an older lady, I call.
Players are too inelastic pre-flop, so the 4Bet is not helpful in ranging her - unless you went really big.

When she checks the flop, I bet pot.
Maybe she folds AK
Give her a chance to backdown
You have a pretty strong made hand

I don’t see this as a problem flop. If there was an ace out there, then it’s a problem. Sure, old ladies scare me, but you have to pressure them early and let them expose their strength.

As played, this player type acting giddy and overbetting the pot is not a bluff. However, I have seen inexperienced players overvalue all sorts of hands. Nothing will surprise me.

Unless I saw something that you didn’t, I fold here too.

Looks well played. Preflop seems fine to me although calling would also be fine

lol

You don’t understand her range if you’re potting flop. She raises with sets and folds AK. This is called a game theory disaster.

Flop is a clear check back and obviously fold turn.

You think you understand ranging, I think I understand the player. I’m not playing it like OP. Nothing is clear or obvious - that’s funny
Why are you worried about my opinion?

Suddenly realised the hand nobody has mentioned as a possibility is the other KK which is my dark horse for the result reveal if it's not AK.

@Freecard I'm genuinely interested to understand your logic for potting the flop other than some mumbo-jumbo about a poker being battle of wills and understanding the opponent, because it seems pretty obvious that a pot sized bet on this flop is ghoulishly awful unless you misread the board, given the ranges we're up against and the basic mathematics of the likely outcomes.

Re preflop, I didn't take our large open sizing into account but even given that I still think 4bet is fine. I would need some very specific info to not 4bet KK - say, a sample size of at least 3-4 hands where V had 3bet and shown down AA and only AA. Other than that we can probably range her to AA-JJ, AK, and possibly a bit of TT and AQ. The postflop runout is an obvious disaster for us in that context and the check back and fold is fine. I can't see V living up to docvail's fear of blasting the turn without a strong hand very often.

Thanks all.

Results: she shows TT for turned set.

Already saw the reveal, but kudos for seeing this. Not noticing that our opponent could have the same hand has been a persistent blind spot for me.

That is surprising.

Your OP said she's "unknown". I have to ask - how long has she been at the table? Has she seen pre-flop action that was wild, with players raising / 3B'ing wide and showing bluffs? That might explain her pre-flop play.

Otherwise, maybe FreeCard has noticed something the rest of us haven't. Maybe they prefer to limp-3B to ISO the original raiser, even from OOP, rather than RFI and likely go multi-way and OOP. I have seen this V type make this play with AA, so maybe it's just their standard line with what they consider to be a premium starting hand.

Maybe FreeCard deserves some acknowledgement on that front. Not sure if a PSB gets her to fold TT on the flop. Not sure that's what we'd necessarily want before we see the turn.

Also not sure what a GTO-approved very small bet would accomplish here, other than possibly buying us a free look at the river, if the turn goes check-check.

I’m trying to help you.

Just realizing this is the second reveal in the past 2 days that involves someone limp-3B'ing pre with a hand that wasn't AA/KK, yet was a hand most of us would think should just be an open raise and not a LRR.

In both hands, the initial raiser IP appears to have over-estimated the hand strength of the LLR'er. And in both hands, the initial raiser still had the best hand on the flop, yet didn't take an aggressive action in response to the LRR'er action.

I'm not sure if this should be the takeaway, but based on this absurdly small sample, it appears that the LRR pre with TT-QQ/AK may be a good way to ensure the EP player at least sees the turn.

It wouldn't seem to be the highest EV play. In this example, V could have limp-called hero's $20 raise pre, and it may have only cost her another $20 to see the turn ($40 total). If she opened for $10 from UTG and hero 3B her to $30, maybe it costs her $10 more to see the turn ($50 total), assuming hero c-bets 1/3 pot on the flop.

It was a similar story in the other hand - limp-3B'ing pre with a non-premium holding just increased the EP player's cost to see the flop and turn. Limp-calling would have been better than limp-raising.

It's kind of funny and I agree ofc. Clearly what I consider to be people's LRR ranges is wrong but the funny thing about these 2 hands is that once the money does go in the middle, we were absolutely crushed.

Good insight. Maybe there's some takeaway in there.

Like, we "good" players hate the LRR, but the "fish" in these hands found a "dumb" way to do something that's typically "smart", in that they realized their equity and (eventually) got their money in good.

I don't know if that's it. JJ was ahead of AK the whole way. And you and I (and likely others) agreed we still wouldn't love being the guy with JJ in that hand. Here, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't love being the old lady with TT, even on the turn.

Maybe the takeaway is if you're stupid, and going to play that way, you might as well steer into it.

I feel like I've been seeing LRR more often in live play tho not like this one in a deep stack situation. Usually people sitting with < 40bb who want to shove, or <75bb who don't mind calling off a 4b all in.

I've seen all kinds of trash get jammed for 50+bb when someone opens 5bb and gets 2 calls. Very little surprises me anymore.

I will admit I occasionally overestimate the hand strength I'll see when seeming nits get stacks in post. I'm calling for them to rollover straights and they're showing down 2P, which is somewhat surprising. I may be giving too many opponents too much credit.

People give their advice when we do not even know the suits of the cards on the flop?

lol

why do you want QQ/JJ to fold?