JJ on K-high dry board

WQC-bet - 30

We have position, and plenty of value from PPs we can get here, as well as protection from Aces and Queens

Cbet/fold and usually check back the turn.

Grunch:

PRE - nice raise size.

FLOP - c-bet small, like $15-$20.

Not really expecting many x/r's on this board, even if V has 2P or a set, because it's fairly dry and static. If we do get x/r'd, it's a $hlt spot. This shallow, I probably just fold.

If V check-calls flop, we could bet small again on the turn, or check back.

If V snap calls flop, and he tank-checks on an ace turn, especially one that brings in a BDFD, I might be tempted to put him on KX and turn our hand into a bluff by over-bet jamming to rep AA/KK/AK.

If he check-calls $15-$20 on flop, the pot will be $106-$116 going to the turn and he'll have $170-$175 left. We could barrel for $50-$60 and check back river. Or we could check back turn and look to bluff catch river.

I'd probably mostly check back turn. His flop calling range is going to be KX or a hand that can't call a turn barrel, but might stab river if the turn checks through. It would suck to barrel turn and then have him x-jam, or donk jam river.

Bet 25, we have value
AK is in our range, not in their range or they would have shown aggression earlier.

Fold to a raise, if they are excited about this flop we are beat. Bet and fold to aggression is a staple of low limit Hold’em.

If v calls:
I think it eliminates a king or 2pair +
So, I’m likely still betting for value on the turn

A lot is read dependent:
How quickly did he call? Did he appear confident? Did the turn brick? What if it’s a jack?

Why would it eliminate a King? Are you expecting them to raise with KT, K9 or whatever random King they limp called pre with?

As for 2p+, I expect 2p will raise, but a set of 5s or 7s, may well just call to trap on such a dry board.

Checking back flop

Ranging the flop is a rough draft, narrowing comes after that - he could have lots of hands at this point.

Miss the flop 68% of the time. He likely bets any king (at least in my room), he checked so has no king. I admit I run myself into sets, they’re hard to see.

It’s a value hand, choose aggression until you meet resistance. Consistent story

Hand continues:

BTN straddle 5. BB calls. V in UTG calls. LJ calls. Hero raises to 35 with JcJs. Only V calls.

Flop (76): Kh7s5c

V checks. Hero? Hero bets 35. V calls.

Turn (146): Qd

Check, check.

River: 8r.

Check. Hero?

I think I would have bet something on the turn against a calling station, but it is another overcard.

As played, v doesn’t seem interested
I think I would check it back on the river though. Trying for thin value would seem silly if he calls with K9 or QJ.

Before I saw turn/river action, my initial instinct was this should be a small flop bet and planning on a 2-street game.

So, as played: flop bet is good (I wouldn't go larger). Turn card is bad - not because we expect V to have Qx very often but because it makes it even harder for him to call with worse. I quite like the check back, anticipating bluffcatching river.

But when checked to, I just wonder if you can squeeze out a few drops of thin value with a bet of like 50 or so - maybe even smaller. I would have expected a King to bet the river pretty often. Maybe you don't get called by worse 50% of the time or maybe you induce the rarest of check-raise bluffs. I just don't see that V has Qx here at all (perhaps a very rare AQs or QJs with flop backdoor) and that you can discount Kx somewhat, and you might just about get called by smaller hands enough of the time for a really small bet to eke out a bit of profit. Perhaps checking back is more prudent

Results

Hero checks back. V shows KQ.

Nicely done, adonson. Laugh at V for us.

Add a note that they like to trap.

villain probably won the max tbh

once this turn goes check/check not much in a nitty hero's range will call river.

Was my read wrong about overvaluing his hands postflop? I didn’t understand why V checked the river. Was he hoping to check raise me? Did he now think top two pair was a bad hand? He slow rolled me. I had to show my JJ first even though I was in position. I got mad then thought: maybe he’s just a bad player who doesn’t know what he’s doing.

I don't believe your read was wrong. I do believe they were pretty silly to check turn and river after making top 2P. Are you really folding to a bet of 50-75 into a pot of 146? When everything besides 64 bricked? Ok, 87 now made 2P.

I think you played it well and lost the minimum.

Nice hand. Well played.

Your read may have been wrong. Or just incomplete.

Maybe he's overly trappy and his hesitation to show was due to embarrassment. Maybe he's a dick who thought he could tilt you by slow-rolling. Could be he over-values hands but he decided to try to trap you because he views you as aggro, then he gets embarrassed when it doesn't work, and he goes for the slow roll. Maybe he just doesn't know what's up.

I'm sure we've all seen fish shut down and check a hand we'd see as a clear value bet because some highly improbable draw comes in. My takeaway in your spot would be to think his river value bets will be too polarized.

If he's not betting KQ here, he's either trapping too much or not betting thin enough, making me think his river bets are going to be nutted or bluffs. I'd watch closely for sizing tells.

If I was in the right head space, I might not be able to stop myself from laughing in your spot. You probably lost the minimum, which would make me less offended by the slow roll. He just made himself look silly.

Range betting flop around 40% and then checking most runouts with our showdown value unless we hit a set.

I don’t understand
Explain to me why villain can’t see your hand when you were the last aggressor?

Getting mad about this is crazy to me when the turn and river both went check-check.

Honestly and truly, I need help to understand this, because I think I pissed off a friendly reg and it was unintentional. I always want to see your hand if I can. What’s wrong with that?

With a boat or the nuts, I would flip it up quick, but this is not clear and if I’m beat, I want to muck. Is this being an *******?

I very much try to be a nice guy - I don’t move very fast playing poker, pretty deliberate with my actions. I’m not a tanker, not slowing down the game, but I’m not rushing my play.

If you win, they don’t like you, but I’m not out to create extra drama. So, you think villain should have just turned over his hand?

in live play, if no betting on river usual etiquette is that the OOP player has to show first. in the position player can then just muck if desired

In the cardroom, oop shows first is the rule. V did not notice my reaction.

The rule on who shows first can vary. In some places, it's the last aggressor from prior streets. In many, perhaps most, it's the OOP player when there hasn't been a bet on the river.

Regardless, experienced and aware players will take note when their opponent hesitates to roll his hand over, and fast-roll their own hand in response, if/when their hand is the likely winner, rather than waiting and forcing the opponent to show. It's a matter of courtesy / etiquette.

I'll generally fast-roll my hand when I believe I've got the best hand, whether I see my opponent hesitate to show or not. I'll try to show before they do, as a show of respect and to avoid even the appearance of a slow-roll.

In all-in situations before the river, I'll usually just show and wait for the rest of the cards to be dealt. I don't see the point in waiting for all the cards to come out before revealing my hand. There's little to know value in the information gained.

It's not necessarily the speed of turning our cards over that constitutes the breach of decorum. It's often the intentional waiting for or insistence that an opponent shows first after he's clearly acknowledged defeat, or the delayed reveal of the nuts after calling an opponent's jam, with the obvious intent to annoy or embarrass an opponent.

I've witnessed some horrendous slow-rolls, and they'll often turn an entire table against the offender. Understandably so. It's just a dick move.

I think a lot of rooms (if not most) have gone from last aggressor shows to showing in turn when the river is checked down. It saves time by avoiding having to try to recall the action from two streets ago and possibly having disputes about it.

Is it really that big of a deal anyway? There’s a reason it’s called SHOWdown. At one time the rule was if you got to showdown, you had to show your hand. I think that was a pretty good rule. Does it really matter that much? Good players already have a good idea what your range is when you get to showdown. Bad players aren’t really paying attention anyway. It would avoid these “Mexican standoffs” over who has to show and avoid a lot of bad feelings over slow rolls.

I agree with this
When I call the river & guy says ‘you’re good’ I immediately flip the cards. When I know I’m good, I flip them quickly. Not worried about gathering info.

But when it plays out & I have a mediocre hand, I wait - if I’m beat, I want to fold.

The situation where a reg was pissed (I think, who knows he might not have given it a second thought) but villain was driving AK and we checked down the river. I had a pair of nines on a board with over-cards. I don’t think he wanted to show his no pair AK, but I didn’t know and thought I was probably beat.

Interesting
I always thought it was always last aggressor, but I guess I need to check out the policies of the rooms I play. Against some players, I am looking for information, so it depends.

That’s probably my only incident. If villain hesitates, I usually just flip it up. But I don’t think you can call it a slow roll when hero thinks he’s beat.

Anyway thanks for the comments. I play poker like a man possessed, but I always want to be the nicest player in the room.

It’s a weird vibe sometimes, because when you win often - some players are happy to see you take a bad beat. It’s a friendly atmosphere, but none of us are friends. I care about people; it’s a leak.