English Football Season 2025-2026. Here we go again.

Holding isn't a grey area. It's a foul. That it has somehow become normalised doesn't stop it being a foul.

If you want to make out that Rice's foul on Mavroupanos, for example, is in a "grey area" or simply not foul play then go right ahead, but you'd be wrong.

Anyway, I'm glad we've put the "but every game would finish 10-8" argument to bed.

Every game probably would finish with ridiculous score lines until things settled down. Maybe you think that's a sacrifice worth making in order to bring the game more in line with the rest of Europe, and you're entitled to that view.

But there are clearly grey areas with "holding". How tightly does one's fist have to be clenched etc?

This is kind of the problem with VAR when it comes to judgement calls. Offside clearly never a judgemental call. But even handball can be a judgement call depending on the exact situation.

I like the concept of VAR but they really need to iron it the **** out as they introduced it without tweaks or clarity to the rules and it somehow is causing more controversy.

This has been mentioned a few times now but doesn't this happen after the foul on Raya? Not to mention before any of this even occurs Soucek(I think) fouls Havertz by leaning on him.

In context of corners I don't think you can police it and I think anyone pretending you can is fooling themselves. The Arsenal corner is kind of the perfect example. Before anyone even fouls Raya, Soucek is leaning on Havertz forcing him to the ground and Rice seems to be fouling Summerville and that's all I can remember, who knows what else is happening.

There's no world where VAR is going to intervene here, every corner would end up in a penalty or a freekick(or both?) and we'd have 30+ minutes of extra time every half if not more.

But we've just been assured that this would all disappear within weeks.

The BBC, no great fans of the Arse, have gone through the whole melee.

Let's break it down step-by-step, consider the potential fouls and what the VAR would be looking for.

Soucek on Havertz

In the chronology of fouls, this was the first potential incident.

The two players were at the near post, with Kai Havertz in front facing the ball. Tomas Soucek was climbing over the back of the Germany international.

As the ball was in the air, the Arsenal forward ended up on the floor with Soucek on top of him.

The VAR will take into account that the players were not in the area where the ball was going to land - Havertz was not going to be prevented from playing it.

That Soucek was facing the ball goes in his favour, too.

All in all, the VAR would have allowed this to go.

Odegaard on Tobido

A straight-forward situation to judge.

Both Martin Odegaard and Jean-Clair Todibo were engaged in mutual holding. When this is the case no one party is judged to be committing an offence - essentially, they are both as bad as each other.

Odegaard had an arm round the waist of the West Ham attacker, who had his arm around the Norway international's shoulder.

Trossard on Pablo

The battle between Leandro Trossard and Pablo started just outside the six-yard box as the ball was kicked.

They were both holding on to each other at first before Pablo tried to make a run towards goal.

This was when Trossard, with his back to the play, grabbed Pablo around the waist.

Based on what we have seen this season, it was not enough for a penalty as Pablo was able to move to the flight of the ball and was not dragged down.

However, this was the incident which may have been of most interest to the VAR outside the foul on Raya.

Pablo on Raya

After moving into the six-yard area under pressure from Trossard, Pablo engaged with David Raya.

Crucially, he did so in a way which impeded the goalkeeper from being able to claim or play the ball.

Pablo had his arm directly across the Spain international, and was holding the goalkeeper's left arm with his hand.

This restricted Raya in two ways. His right arm was pinned down by Pablo's left biceps, and his left forearm was being held too.

For the VAR, this clearly impacted the goalkeeper's ability to play the ball.

Tobido was pulling the back of Raya's shirt, too, but it was Pablo committing the crucial foul.

Rice on Mavropanos

Declan Rice had his arms around the waist of West Ham's Konstantinos Mavropanos.

There was the potential for this to be a penalty, as it was a clear non-footballing action.

However, it happened almost simultaneously with Pablo's challenge on Raya.

The foul which had the material impact on the passage of play was prioritised.

And that was Raya's attempt to play the ball.

I don’t think so but whether it does or doesn’t, that isn’t a grey area, it’s a foul. He’d already committed one before that on Summerville (at the same corner).

You either have rules and enforce them or change the rules. Having them and not results in what we have just seen. I don’t give a **** what the scorelines are, the smartest teams adapt fastest.

The rules are clear on holding. It’s not permitted. Even if you think it is, there is no grey area in what Rice is doing, or whoever pulled Pablo’s shirt.

Anyway, **** Arsenal, the biggest ****s ever shat into existence, it’s fitting that they are managed by the turtle neck wearing prick, it’s a match made in heaven.

LOOL

Guess my post was just too long for you to process.

Still supporting the Spammers to stay up.

Oh I wasn't arguing the grey area statement, it's a foul by Declan Rice, but Raya gets fouled before/during that and before that Soucek pushes Havertz into the ground.

You want the refs to be consistent, you should be too.

This explains the bad points you make.

West Ham fan?

Christ now for 2 hours of insane emotional turmoil

But it’s fine for you to ignore all the other shenanigans too. Of which there was plenty. Like the one on Summerville.

Yeah, I’m a West Ham fan.

Can I take it that as an Arsenal fan you are also a virgin?

Rooting for you guys due to recent events. May West Ham go down and stay down.

Whoa whoa whoa that's a bit harsh.

That is far from limited to Arsenal fans let me tell you personally.

How many points do Spurs get deducted for having a manager with hair gel and white trainers?

No sir. I've had sex at least twice in my life, with kids to show for both tries.

Speaking of sex, I ordered a West Ham kit so I can do my wife while she wears it and I wear Arsenal #19. You are welcome to watch.

I don't think you are a virgin anymore after this season. You've been ****ed plenty.

Suggest you seek help and your wife finds a good divorce lawyer.

That was almost awesome from Tel. That could have started a riot.

Great clearance from Tel. Launched a counter attack.

Short sleeve shirts on goalkeepers are a no no as well. Look at Pickford.

re: every defender bear-hugging an opponent on corners

i reject this premise. could be wrong, but i feel like it's progressively gotten worse over the last 10 years or whatever, and obviously will continue to unless they do something about it. guessing they'll do the usual thing where they crack down on it for literally 1 day then go back to normal, and then bust it out again whenever a big team needs a call.

It’s got a lot worse over the decades. There’s much more at stake now so players and managers have to eke out every advantage they can.

I’m all in favour of minimising the holding and fouling that goes on at set pieces but it’s difficult when you have a football culture of “they don’t like it up ‘em” and “in my day they played on with an injury like that” that sees physicality as an essential part of the English game and which doesn’t exist on the continent.