Blown off course with sailboats

I would limp behind preflop and call the turn donk as played.

The preflop raise knocked out the limpers and got it HU. If you limp, it probably would have been a 5 or 6 way limped pot, which gives you great immediate odds to play for a set. If SB 3! your raise, it would have been a disaster. If you limp and someone raises, then you might get a multiway raised pot, which is also good for you. If there is a big raise and everyone folds, you can limp/fold. Don't need to always be the preflop aggressor.

Turn raise size leaves 1/3 pot behind and sets up difficult river spot. You are probably beat, but he could have a busted draw that he called the turn raise with having incorrect odds.

In general, you tend to usually play aggressively with marginal hands when sometimes calling, checking, or folding is better. I understand that most 1/3 players are too passive, but sometimes passive play is better.

Preflop, you have a profitable spot limping and playing multiway, but maybe -EV playing this hand HU, even with initiative and position.

On the turn, you may be ahead, and it is a wet board. When you don't know if you are bluffing or value betting, it is usually better not to raise.

You keep posting over and over where you are overagressive with marginal hands. You need to consider less aggressive options more. It doesn't apply to this hand, but you also need to value bet more and larger with big hands.

You weren't blown off course. You sailed off course.

Grunch:

So many people say their 1/3 game plays like 2/5 that I'm starting to think 1/3 just plays like 1/3, but 1/3 is gambly.

PRE - meh. I think we could over-limp to set mine, but raising doesn't seem terrible. I'd assume we'll still see a flop, and might still be multi-way. Raise size seems fine.

FLOP - c-bet seems fine. Sizing seems okay. Seems like we should assume we're often behind a better 1P if we get called, and proceed accordingly. V could also have some draws, obviously.

TURN - Wait...what?

Stop doing this, Banana. If V checked to us, I'd think we could check this back. We have a sliver of SDV, and we picked up an OESD. It would suck to get x/r'd here. Using the same logic, when V donks small, we can just flat call.

I understand the urge to turn our hand into a bluff, when it looks like we're probably behind, yet we picked up a draw. But we need to think about this logically. If we're behind, and V is donking small, he's giving us a chance to play perfectly on the river. We can fold when we brick and he barrels, or we can call, bet, or raise when we make our straight.

We might even be able to make a more credible bluff by flatting turn and jamming river if he checks to us.

This turn raise is pure spew, unless we have a read that V is prone to making odd turn donks and over-folding to raises. Without that sort of read, I look at the turn donk like it's a delayed check-raise. It's often done when an opponent smashed the flop, but wants to see a safe turn card before taking aggressive action.

Looking at the board, and given our read, I'd think this is KX a lot, maybe even AK that didn't raise pre, or maybe some strange 2P. With V in the SB, it's not impossible he shows up with 64 or A4 that drilled a straight on the turn.

Bluffs? I dunno. Maybe A2dd, or some 3x combo that picked up a draw, which would mostly just be 43, A3, or 63.

RIVER - we're never ahead here, unless V found this line with something like A2dd or 3x. I'd want to puke doing it, but I don't see how we can do anything other than fold.

Im currently in a spot where I would limp 44 here, as I've recently been overplaying and value owning myself post vs the population I play against. Maybe you are too but that's something you need to ask yourself - is this optimal in my game?

On the turn you are getting a good price to continue and if you need to hero call the river, the price will probably be lower there too if you just call.
The raise blows out your strategic advantages in position. As value it is way too thin, and as a bluff it is sketchy, since you rep a fairly thin sliver of your raising range.

Discretion is the better part of valor.
Or is that bitter?

Disagree. We ''know'' villain will do a lot of limp/calling. The only thing raising 44 achieves here is inflating the pot with a mediocre/**** hand. Combine that with Banana's postflop tendencies(they're not very good) and it's just asking for trouble.

I'd do a lot of iso'ing in this spot, it would never be with 44.

Post is just spew.

Why did you raise so big on the turn? I’m not sure a raise is good but at least a normal sized raise would set up a playable SPR on the river.

I think you should fold the river. Great price but how/why would he ever bluff here? He’s not gonna jam with A2dd or whatever.

Ha, I've heard lottsa players (often some very poor ones) in my 1/3 NL game over the years say it "plays more like a 2/5 NL game". I literally have no clue what they mean by that. Anyhoo.

I would just overlimp but we managed to get this HU in position with initiative so good result if that's what we expected... although we sure paid a hefty price with a difficult to play hand to do so.

I'm fine with a small cbet on this board.

When a passive guy comes out betting a big street I don't think I'd ever get aggro. We're getting a good price to chase our OESD and meanwhile can also rep the flush if he checks the river when it comes in, so I just flat the turn.

I mean, we've really dug ourselves a stoopid hole thanks to our massive almost-committing raise on the turn (not too far off from "shoving to see where we're at", imo). But is a passive player really shoving the rest of his chips in on a missed draw enough of the time here into our massive strength? Prolly not.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Never understood this either and always ignored it.

Lol this is great

1/3 games often have about the same raise size as 2/5, but more limped pots, less 3! pots, shallower stacks, etc. In Texas, there are maybe 1/2 games that are like 2/5 games elsewhere.

So if you know villain will do a lot of limp/calling and you're going to be in position why would you not raise a wide range? You should be printing money in position against players limping wide and calling raises wide. You want to inflate the pot - you'll have a range advantage, position, and should have a skill advantage. We have the ability to show down 44 or turn it into a bluff - not raising is criminal.

By limping, you don't narrow the field. Also, you can limp/call, but it is a bad situation if you get 3!.

If you are going to raise, I would raise small to keep the limpers in, but I find that provokes a 3! a lot.

When players are inelastic, loose, often with straddles - most 1/3 games - it can seem financially similar to a bunch of rocks playing 2/5.

I like preflop, but adding $5 per limper might be too much. I hate the flop:
Two options
1
Check back - probably the best option - see a FreeCard & evaluate action on turn.

2
Bet pot - too bluff this hand properly - you give them poor odds right away - has to work 1/2 the time

As played, you allowed 22 to get there - with the small flop bet, though they’re popular. If you had checked back he still gets there, but you could fold easy.

So instead, when villain showed strength, you tried to overpower him. It didn’t work. Now he called, don’t put anymore in the middle.

I think it takes the right victims to play aggressively against, but as others have said calling pre & set-mining would be better than your play.

I think you mixed up a flop donk (often weak stabs, good to raise) and the turn donk (when people mean business)

I think a lot of people conflate the theoretical advantages of open raising with raising over limpers, but they're not the same.

If action folded to hero in the CO, sure, go ahead and raise 44. But when there are two limpers in EP/MP, and still three players left to act, our raising range needs to be tighter, and 44 doesn't make the cut.

Our raise has to get through five opponents. In a 9-handed game, raising in the CO over two limps isn't even like RFI'ing from the LJ. It's more like RFI'ing from UTG or UTG+1, because two opponents have already VPIP'd. Emphasis on the V - they *voluntarily* put money in.

Even if they're terrible and have wide ranges, if we assume they're not limping with ATC, their limp says they like their hands enough to want to see a flop, and they're less likely to fold to our raise.

It's okay to raise if we have reads that BTN and the blinds will over-fold, or if we have a clear skill edge post flop. But SB didn't fold, and we forfeit our skill edge when we turn SDV + OESD into a 6x bluff on the turn, leaving less than 1/3 pot behind for the river.

Raising is usually better than limping behind. However, with 44, your main goal should be a multiway pot, which is accomplished best by limping behind. Playing a small pp multiway is the best way to exploit loose passive players.

Pre overlimp, flop x, turn call or fold (will be around the same EV I for this bet size), river fold.

You took a dream over limp in position and turned it into this.

Result: I fold, V shows T♦ 6♦ and wheels it in my face

Lol!

Gyoumakepokerharderthanitneedstobe,imoG

...............

It's almost as if we could open a wide range, without 44 being part of that range. Shocking revelation.

Lol.

Drunk Banana got out-drunk Banana’d!

When he called the raise and then donk shoved the river, it looked like a busted draw. It is not surprising you both had draws on the wet board.

Just a real disaster. Such a profitable spot to just limp behind preflop. Easy call of the turn donk. In both cases, the hand plays naturally. You are putting yourself into difficult spots with aggression in the wrong situations.

If you were going to raise to $210 and leave Villain $165 behind, you should have just ripped it.