Blown off course with sailboats

Yeah, if you were going to raise the turn, raise smaller or shove. You put yourself in thie river spot by leaving 1/4 pot behind. There is a problem with shoving though because you only have 10 outs on the turn against a higher pair. You are 22% against KQ or something. You don't want to raise with so little equity.

It isn't surprising he had a combo draw on the wet board, and didn't want to fold it. You keep posting stack off or close semibluffs with marginal hands on wet boards. That is not a good play.

Villain also misplayed the turn. He probably shouldn't have donked and probably needed to fold his combo draw to the big raise.

As played, you are getting over 4-1 on the river and his line looks like a missed draw, so you probably needed to call. If he had a strong made hand on the turn, why didn't he 3! shove, knowing you were almost always calling? He wouldn't want to let you draw on the wet board if he had a set or something.

You could argue about the flop and river, but this hand might literally be misplayed on every street.

Hope you jumped up laughing and fist bumped villain. Floating the turn and jamming the river with nothing, how can you not like this guy?

I’ve often been afraid to rip it with value, because of my tite image, but I don’t think others see me that clearly.

I am learning that more and more in these discussions, jamming is the better option.

He didn't have nothing. He had a combo draw. Not that a combo draw is great on turn or that it was a good play to call the huge turn raise. Typical low stakes player. Can't fold a draw and then realizes he can't show down 10-high. Overplayed a marginal hand on a wet board, just like hero did.

Jumpin' Jehosaphat.

I don't even know what to say. I can't remember the last time I hero-called in a spot like this and was right.

It's not every day we see hero bluff with the best hand and get re-bluffed with air in a spot where there wouldn't appear to be any fold equity, and V wouldn't appear to have any bluffs.

I don't know how we'd decide V was donking turn with just a flush draw, but if we did, jamming seems like a better line.

Thank you, Captain Pedantic.

The point was that if we think he's donking with a draw, a jam for value is better than raising less than all in as a bluff, and then folding river. The specific draw V has doesn't matter.

If you think he is donking with a draw, then call the river. The problem with the big raise or shove is if he calls with a made hand, you are usually 22% or worse to win. He wasn't getting odds to call with a draw on the turn, so I understand the fold. Really typical of a low stakes player not to fold a combo draw or whatever.

Anyway a flush and straight draw is not the same as just a flush draw. I don't see that as pedantic.

You're replying to me as if I made this play. I didn't. We're discussing hypotheticals.

Hypothetically, if hero thinks V is on a draw and he's raising for value / protection, jamming makes more sense.

The difference in equity between the different draws V may have doesn't lead to a result where hero's raise size is better than all in.

That's what makes it pedantic. We don't care what draw V has once we jam.

I was not discussing hypotheticals. You can't jam or raise big on the turn because you have a weak made hand and a weak draw. You can't put villain on a draw. You have to look at his whole range. You are 22% against most higher pairs. You could be in better or worse shape than that. However, you don't want to risk getting it in for your whole stack to get some made hands and draws to fold.

You've misunderstood the point I was making to OP.

I literally don't know if OP thought he was raising turn for value, or as a bluff. It looks like a bluff.

The point I was making is that even if hero thought he was raising for value, because he thought V was donking as a semi-bluff with a draw (presumably a flush draw, being the most obvious draw, and thus the one hero would be most likely to put V on), a jam makes more sense than the raise size OP used.

The reason a jam makes more sense is that we're basically priced in to call the river, regardless of what the river card is. We may as well get the max from V's draws if we think we're raising turn for value.

I don't know if it was for value. Like I said, it looks like a bluff. But if we're going to bluff, a jam still makes more sense, if we're trying to generate max fold equity.

I wasn't advocating for a turn raise of any size. I said OP should have just flat called. You seem to agree with me. The turn raise doesn't make sense to me, either for value or as a bluff, when it leaves less than 1/3 pot going to the river.

When I said "just a draw", I was speaking hypothetically, referring to the range OP might have assigned V when he raised V's turn donk. Obviously he didn't know V had a COMBO draw before he saw V's hand.

Pointing out to me that V had a COMBO draw specifically is pedantic, because A) hero didn't know that when he raised; B) hero wouldn't have narrowed V's range to that degree; C) it doesn't really change anything if hero is raising for value; and D) it's completely beside the point I was making to OP, which was about his raise sizing, not V's range, or the equity of hero's hand versus that range.

Hope that makes sense.

Yeah, doc. I agree flat call the turn, but shove if you are going to raise big.