2/5 ~ Top2 facing donk
2/5 ~ 9 handed
V is young asian. Has been a passive fish so far. But when others are uninterested in pot, he will stab turn/river once with random hand.
HH
V limps
H opens 25 w/kkh
V calls
Eff 200, H covers
467hh H cbets 25 v x/c
Turn 3h xx
Riv A V bets 50 H folds.
Actual hand
Eff 700, we cover.
H just got stacked by another fish. H might be tilting?
V in utg limps, he has been limp/calling some.
Another limper
H in btn picks up T♠Q♠ opens to 30
Only V calls
Hu pot 72
Flop T♦4♦5♥
H cbets 30
V x/c
pot 132
Turn Q♥
V donks 75
Hero??
What is V repping? Qxdd? QT? QQ? J9/JKdd?
13 Replies
I would be raising/calling off vs jam here with our strong value hand here when a fish donks into us here, plenty of straight/flush and combo draws to get value from. Yes 55/44 will be in his range and stack you, but many other hands in there including 54s and others to get value from. If you read into game-flow state here of H recently getting stacked and table has perception you are tilting fast playing strong value hands also a good idea as opponents will call wider. When we are facing aggression in live games with near top of our range on wet textures, I generally advocate for fast playing as Villains are not looking to make disciplined folds.
Grunch:
PRE - we don't need to raise QTs on the BTN over 2 limpers, especially not when we know the first limper will limp-call a lot. Just flat call and hope neither of the blinds put in a squeeze.
FLOP - c-betting seems fine. I might go larger if we think V limp-calls too wide pre and will call too wide post. He could have more hands that will pay off a bigger bet
TURN - hmmmm... I'd think sets would x/r flop or donk larger than roughly half pot.
If we assume the turn changes something for him, he could have been slow playing something and doesn't want you to check back, or he could have picked up equity.
I dunno. I understand the urge to raise, but I'd think we'd mostly be folding out worse and forcing him to only continue with better hands or higher equity semi-bluffs. Raising seems like a potential over-play.
I wouldn't worry too much about trying to assign him a range of specific combos. He's either value betting better or worse, or he's bluffing. Just call and evaluate on the river.
If he checks river on a brick, I'd probably v-bet. If he checks on a card that brings in either flush draw, I might check back. If he bets on a brick, anything more than 3/4 pot, I'd have to think about it before calling. Anything 60% pot or less on a brick and I snap call.
If he bets on a heart, or especially if he bets on a diamond, anything more than 2/3 pot, I think we can probably make a disciplined fold.
PRE - we don't need to raise QTs on the BTN over 2 limpers, especially not when we know the first limper will limp-call a lot. Just flat call and hope neither of the blinds put in a squeeze.
Please please please stop advocating for all this limping pre, that’s what fish do. This is a suited broadway OTB, this is a raise every single time according to any and all respectable teachings.
Preflop ranges are the first thing experts teach, learn them.
raise small enough so that worse hands call. you're too deep to jam.
KQ or AQ might also take this line
I don’t think it’s a set or they would have acted sooner. I don’t know why villain would give himself bad odds for a flush draw.
I think we are ahead, but like you, I don’t have a feel for villain’s range. I would double it to $150, expect to get called and then evaluate the river.
Spoiler
Pot 612
Riv 7♠
V checks
H jams
V tank tank tank
tank forever thought he was going to fold
finally makes a call
and wins with 44???????
I normally would call it a cooler and move on. But when villain tanking so hard and like he's going to fold. I had doubts about this hand.
you got nitrolled. dont be results-oriented.
...I understand the urge to raise, but I'd think we'd mostly be folding out worse and forcing him to only continue with better hands or higher equity semi-bluffs. Raising seems like a potential over-play.
Hero raises to 240
V tank a bit then call
Pot 612
Riv 7♠:
V checks
Hero?? V has 410 left now. We jamming right??
Seriously, what hands can you target for value on the river, after he x/c's flop, and donk-calls a pretty chunky turn raise?
Spoiler
Pot 612Riv 7♠:V checksH jamsV tank tank tanktank forever thought he was going to foldfinally makes a calland wins with 44??????? I normally would call it a cooler and move on. But when villain tanking so hard and like he's going to fold. I had doubts about this hand.
You should have doubts about it. You over-played it on the turn and river because you didn't range your opponent.
That x/c flop, donk turn line isn't usually a bluff. If V is passive, he's even less likely to be bluffing or betting worse for value.
He tanked because you were over-repping. You could have QQ and TT in this line.
Seriously, what hands can you target for value on the river, after he x/c's flop, and donk-calls a pretty chunky turn raise?You should have doubts about it. You over-played it on the turn and river because you didn't range your opponent. That x/c flop, donk turn line isn't usually a bluff. If V is passive, he's even less likely to be bluffing or betting worse for value.He tanke
Say we just flat turn
Pot is like 300ish
Then same riv 7s, he bets like 200
we just call down?
Say we just flat turn
Pot is like 300ish
Then same riv 7s, he bets like 200
we just call down?
Probably just fold. Might call if he bet $150 or less.
Was this or was this not your read?
...V is young asian. Has been a passive fish so far. But when others are uninterested in pot, he will stab turn/river once with random hand...
Passive fish. Will stab at it when others show no interest. But you showed interest when you raised pre and c-bet the flop.
You showed a $hlt ton of Internet when you raised turn and left less than a PSB behind going to the river.
How many times can I point this out to you? You have the reads, but you don't use them. It's right there.
He's not stabbing turn with some random hand. He slow-played the flop and went for the "delayed check raise" by donking turn.
What do you think he's donking with on the turn that calls your raise, and then calls off a river jam, that you actually beat? Is he really taking this line with 54s? I doubt it.
Fish under bluff. They under barrel. If you flat call turn and he checks river, you can bet for some thin value. If you call turn and he barrels, you need to consider what he has in his range that you can beat.
You don't beat any value that donks turn and barrels river. Your turn raise and river jam effectively turned your hand into a bluff. It's all but impossible to get called by worse there.
