Flat call pre, jam safe flops with QQ - what is this line?

This sounds similar to a post I made about having a locked up flop against two action players.

So I guess yes I have seen it. I was told on the forum that V was trying to trap slow play, and also I shouldn’t try to get into the heads of these types of players.

I play at the lowest stakes. Are you playing higher? What are the table dynamics? Was V maybe expecting a 3bet From behind so he could jam? Is there history with the two of you? Just guessing here.

I used to be convinced that some players don’t know that they are suppose to 3bet.

Oh I forgot to add. You should have raised larger pre. JK😄

These players are fish. They don't trust themselves to make uncomfortable decisions (QQ 3bets and get 4bet, or gets called and has to play an A-high board in a bloated pot, or has to navigate a dynamic runout at all) so they jam to try and end the hand.

It sucks, but the main way to exploit is to wait for a better hand and win all the money. You can also start to eliminate a lot of hands from their range when they just check and call, and when they do actually 3b and 4b. But I wouldn't run a huge bluff against this guy, either -- the reason he's doing this is because he knows that he has no fold button.

Exactly what I came to say. I see it all the time out of the OMC style crowd, regardless of age. Some of them do the same with KK, lots do it with JJ.

I did win a big pot recently doing it myself. An OMC 3B. I put him on AA and only AA because he NEVER 3Bs. I should have folded except that set mining with QQ worked due to stack sizes.

I flopped the set. He pushed AI in a huge overbet and then complained loud and long about how he's so unlucky and I didn't play QQ properly.

Interesting insight I hadn't thought about.

Thinking about two of the players I've seen do this recently. One is pretty nitty, with absolutely no bluffs, but will fold pre. The other seemed to be a bit of a calling station - no 3B range pre, unless maybe it's AA/KK, but will call raises pre with all sorts of trash.

Here's what I find curious about this line - we could have QQ+ as the PFR. Hell, we could have a lot of lower PP's and flopped a set, or flopped 2P with a SC.

The flat call pre / jam flop line seems to assume that JJ, QQ, or whatever they have is the nuts. If we haven't seen V do this before, we could fold a higher PP, thinking they must surely have a 2P+.

I wonder how often people end up folding the best hand to this line. If that happens, jamming JJ/QQ is effectively turning those hands into bluffs, I'd think.

Some low limit players care more about protection than value. They don’t care that you only call with better, they want you to fold if you have outs.

I think there is also a species that hates having to make "tough" decisions so they opt for making "simple" decisions. So call preflop with QQ, and get your money in with an overpair - that is simple. 3b pre, and see an overcard 1/3 of the time -tough decision.

Edit: I see some posters said same thing above.

I agree with the pre-flop logic that these players are likely using. What I'm wondering is if we're over-folding to them when we just have an over-pair? What about when they jam JJ on a Q-high board and we have AQ?

They're playing their QQ/JJ like they flopped 2P or a set. Is this also how they play their 2P and sets? Are we just snapping them off whenever we can beat QQ or JJ? How often are we snapping with AA/KK and being shown 2P or a set?

Their line would seem to be high variance for them, but would also seem to create higher variance for their opponents.

The people I see do this absolutely will never jam JJ with a Q, K, or A on the flop. The whole reason they didn't 3B pre was to make sure their PP remained TP.

Anytime that sort of player jams, they have TPGK beat ...assuming they aren't on a mega tilt where they need someone to stack them so they can go home and prove to the world that they are the unluckiest players in the room.

Okay. Fair enough, but...

Let's say we have AA/KK on a J-high board. We c-bet, and they jam. Are we calling it off? How are we making that decision, if we know this is how they'll play QQ and JJ, but also how they'd play lower PP's which may have flopped middle or bottoms set, or possibly a SC that flopped 2P?

And, while I think the logic of not jamming JJ on a Q-high board makes sense to you and me and everyone else here, the fact is we could have AA/KK in our range, which makes me wonder if they're just looking for any board without an A or K on it, because they think we always have AK, such that even a Q-high board looks safe enough to just go with their hand.

I mean, the logic appears to be that they're only 3B'ing AA/KK pre, and flatting with everything else, in order to avoid difficult post-flop decisions. But there could be a lot of flops that present them with difficult decisions.

Like, what do they do when they smash it? What do they do with QQ or JJ on AAX boards? What about TTX? What about when they flop an OESD on a board with one or two over-cards and one or two under-cards? What are they doing on monotone flops, or three-to-a-straight flops?

I've seen something similar, I think from the same type of players, when they flat pre rather than 3B'ing with AK, then they come out and donk on the flop with just two overs, or go for a x/r when they have TPTK.

Obviously we're not folding to this line when we smash the flop with 2P+. But this line of slow-play pre / fast-play flop would seem to be unintentionally super-polar. It seems schizophrenic, when someone does something "scared money" pre, then goes HAM with thin value on the flop.

Where I'm struggling is that they seem to play their thick value and their thin value in the same way, making it hard to know when we're ahead of a lower over-pair or behind 2P+. If we're always folding AA/KK and only continuing with 2P+, I'd think we'd be over-folding.

Doc, I don't run into that situation often enough to have a set strategy. Maybe I've overfolded on occasion. But I've got no problems folding AA to a guy who never bluffs and is suddenly showing huge aggression.

I'll eat his stack in small bites over the course of the day because he bleeds chips trying to catch me with a nutted flops and overpairs.

Anytime the bet costs an enormous amount compared to the money already invested, it is logical to fold. I once saw a guy shove (30k) the 2nd hand of a tournament with 500 in the pot - everyone laughed.

If you get in a habit of doing that, you will get called by better at some point. But big bets make great bluffs.

I’m not sure what you’re asking, but a lot of players hit their hand and get it in, they just have varying opinions on what is a hit hand.

Playing premiums passively pre/flop, like facing a set, is hard to detect in hand reading. It’s best to accept they will fool us sometimes.

The question(s):
Do you recognize that it’s just top pair, top kicker and it’s best to pot control, because if a lot of money goes in, you’re beat? maybe multiway or facing aggression

Do you recognize that it’s top pair, top kicker and likely the best hand to drive for 3 streets (or just get it in) against lots of worse hands? maybe heads up/loose - chase - sticky
The answer: It depends

No need to call off your stack when you have time to wait for a situation where you can make villain call off his. So, I just think you note the behaviors - hits hand, raises big / plays big pairs passively, etc

The fold is a valuable thing to waste.