Caw! Caw! /\( ' ^ ' *)/\
1/3/6 NLHE
Table open an hour and warming up. Several fish are getting tilted and people are coolering each other so the level of emotion is boiling.
V - Competent for profit LAG. Used to be nervous about this guys game. He's a great hand reader. That said, he doesnt like playing over 1/3 or 2/5 and isnt so creative and mainly beats up the fish being ABC. He's been grinding up to 800 (500 BI) this session but just lost a tough hand and is down to 570$, we cover. BTN.
HH: Fish opens 10, V IP to 35 with AKcc, fish calls A2hh. Flop A-Q-T one h, fish x/raises small, V 3! gets it in OTF while still fairly deep imo (SPR ~5-6). V holds.
---570 V eff---
UTG+1, MP, LJ, HJ limp, H sees Q♣ J♣ and limps CO, V 35 BTN, SB, BB, UTG+1 and LJ caw .. H caws closing the action. 6-ways.
Flop 210 - J♦ 6♥ 3♣
Checks to V, V bets 85, folds to H who caws, HU OOP.
Turn 380 - 8♠
H checks, V AI for 450...
Did you consider a LRR preflop rather than a caw? 170 or so could have made things interesting, although I'm not sure if it's better...
It seems a pretty safe flop to blast off on. Does he do this with a hand like AJ/KJ? Obviously he can have JJ+, but if he does the same with all AK (reasonable) then you're nearly getting odds to call so it depends if you're more likely to see other bluffs (AQ or whatever) more often than thinner value. Maybe once in a while he turns up with 88. I'm tempted to caw
Grunch:
PRE - raise.
FLOP - I might actually donk. Not really expecting V to c-bet all that often into 5 opponents on this board. As played...are you thinking he's betting worse for value here, or bluffing?
I don't think he's likely to be betting worse for value, or bluffing into5 opponents on this board. I'd be surprised if he's betting worse than KJ here.
TURN - easy check-fold.
4 limpers and you overlimp from the CO with a suited broadway? I’m sorry but I can’t help that.
To answer the "why did you limp?" question (not that you asked but thanks for the sarcasm), one or two trappy nits had limped UTG+1 or MP. These guys have a very happy limp jam range and QJs is just not value here.
To answer the "why did you limp?" question (not that you asked but thanks for the sarcasm), one or two trappy nits had limped UTG+1 or MP. These guys have a very happy limp jam range and QJs is just not value here.
Why do we care about getting limp-raised by a nit, though? QJs is an easy fold to a LRR. I would thank the guy for playing his hand face-up. If the alternative is limp-calling 6bb OOP vs a solid opponent and navigating a bloated pot postflop with a bad TP, I would rather just raise-fold.
As played, I would turbo fold the turn given the reads.
I'm fine with the overlimp after this many limpers. ETA: As usual I'm outvoted, and obviously put yourselft in the spots you want, but raise/folding is not a coup (putting in dead money only to have to fold all our potential postflop equity in position and more skilled is actually a horrendous result when it occurs), seeing the flop eleventeen ways to a big SPR in position with assumingly a decent skill advantage is perfectly fine, and a weak suited broadway against a field of limpers can easily be near the bottom equity wise at the current moment (which is why we're perfectly fine seeing a cheap flop to see if that changes instead of isolating ourselves against better hands).
Even though we're closing the action and getting decent IO, we'll be going to a very small SPR very multiway which is all about committing with nuttish hands immediately (at least, imo). This hand just doesn't make a heckuva lotta nuttish hands and we'll often be ~dead against a huge number of combos like Axcc/Kxcc and dominating Qx/Jx hands (which no one is folding preflop). I'd more continue with ~nutmaking hands, so here I fold.
Also seems like a trivial fold on the flop too, no? I mean this guy looks like he's just ABC beating up on fishes and we're in an eleveteenway pot. This is TT? JT? AK? Really?
I don't make it to the turn but I fold again.
GcluelessNLnoobG
I'm fine with the overlimp after this many limpers. ETA: As usual I'm outvoted, and obviously put yourselft in the spots you want, but raise/folding is not a coup (putting in dead money only to have to fold all our potential postflop equity in position and more skilled is actually a horrendous result when it occurs), seeing the flop eleventeen ways to a big SPR in position wit
I guess I was a little too glib in my response. I don't think that overlimping is inherently bad, but I think using the justification that "some people are limp-raising" is pretty weak. Obviously, we don't love to put in money and fold to a LRR, but how often does that happen?? If players are limping 35 or 40 percent of hands (or more!!) and limp-reraising JJ+/AK (or tighter!!) then it's not very often. If they are making all the usual fishy mistakes that limpers tend to make, then I think it's profitable to raise. As usual, there are plenty of ways to play a spot profitably at low stakes live poker, though.
Also worth noting that GG, who has a profitable strategy built around limping, overlimp-folds QJs in this spot, and xfolds flop with top pair if he gets there. Here, we have overlimp-called, xcalled flop, and are considering xcalling $450 on the turn with a bad top pair and little chance to improve, which feels like a bunch of compounding mistakes that may have been avoided if we didn't deviate from a standard raise-or-fold preflop strategy.
Probably need some kind of expansion on "LAG", are you suggesting that V might have any suited A here and be blasting off? Or JT for value?
Or just that he's more aggressive HU, but in this kind of spot he'll have it a lot because he'll have the same trappy reads that you do?
To answer the "why did you limp?" question, one or two trappy nits had limped UTG+1 or MP. These guys have a very happy limp jam range and QJs is just not value here.
Hand is probably a lot easier to play as a raise ... and then after you limp calling in CO when BTN raised is going to be very difficult to realize, also the pot is now huge (and thus. SPR is low) 6 ways which is worse for your pretty hand. Yeh, it's only $29 more ... but you'll be in so many spots like this where you don't know where you're at playing for $500 more.
Given reads, probably fold flop?
You have the 6th best one pair, and you put him on all the better ones? And there are basically no draws. Do you have other reads that he'll blast off with AK or worse?
Probably still just shrug fold turn for the same reasons, without other reads that he's bluffing.
Hand so far is played a lot like a 1-2 random would: hand looks pretty so not folding to see if we hit; we hit something so not folding flop; nothing really changed on the turn so call it off. ez game, just a cooler if we're behind and we probably have outs.
Might peel the flop but would prob fold turn. This is based on the fact that you're 6-way to the flop and V has to expect at least one person to call and possibly call down. Yet they still bet 40%
Sometimes they have AK/AQ, betting for a "free card"/consistent story for fold equity but this just feels like thick value, unless there's something in the pfr size you think is telling.
Why do we care about getting limp-raised by a nit, though? QJs is an easy fold to a LRR. I would thank the guy for playing his hand face-up. If the alternative is limp-calling 6bb OOP vs a solid opponent and navigating a bloated pot postflop with a bad TP, I would rather just raise-fold.
As played, I would turbo fold the turn given the reads.
This doesn't make sense and is terrible thinking. The "alternative" isn't limp calling 6BBs OOP. You have no knowledge that BTN is going to raise when you limp in. Try working on your thought process. You're using the outcome of multiple streets to influence your decision when it limps to you fifteen ways.
Result: I just caw turn expecting to lose a lot, River bricks and we're good somehow.
You never saw his hand?
I don't like slow rolling opponents, but when we're not sure if our hand is best, I'd make him show first.
Here, we have overlimp-called, xcalled flop, and are considering xcalling $450 on the turn with a bad top pair and little chance to improve, which feels like a bunch of compounding mistakes that may have been avoided if we didn't deviate from a standard raise-or-fold preflop strategy.
This is a fair enough point (and I'm not a fan of any of the decisions the OP made post-limp, although he's the one shipping the monster pot so lol @ us, ldo).
But basically just pointing out that overlimping here ain't horrendous... although could see how our decision could be swayed on how well we play in various spots.
GcluelessoverlimpingnoobG
To answer the "why did you limp?" question (not that you asked but thanks for the sarcasm), one or two trappy nits had limped UTG+1 or MP. These guys have a very happy limp jam range and QJs is just not value here.
So you are deviating significantly from optimal preflop strategy because on rare occasion somebody might limp/reraise you? The LRR is exactly what you want, you fold and lose very little because they've turned their hand face up. If you overlimp like the rest of the fish you have no clue as to where you are on the flop going forward.
Basically by limping you are doing exactly what the limping fish want you to do and forfeiting tons of equity in the process.
As played, you chose to risk your entire stack in a limped pot with nothing but top pair. That's another huge mistake.
I truly cannot understand how people can post infinite hands here and still have no clue as to the most basic poker principles. This forum is to learn, yet so many fail to do so. Why?
So you are deviating significantly from optimal preflop strategy because on rare occasion somebody might limp/reraise you? The LRR is exactly what you want, you fold and lose very little because they've turned their hand face up. If you overlimp like the rest of the fish you have no clue as to where you are on the flop going forward.Basically by limping you are doing exactly
1. I absolutely know where I am when it comes J-blank-blank, knowing I might and am often behind
2. the fish don't "want me" to do anything.
3. there's no equity being forfeited, opening and having to a fold to a LRR is forfeiting equity..I'm realizing my equity, you don't seem to know the definition of equity.
4. It's not a limped pot that "I risked my entire stack" in...its a SRP
5. "I truly cannot understand..." yea I see that
This is why I don't interact in my threads anymore. There's way too many incoherent posts like this.
1. I absolutely know where I am when it comes J-blank-blank, knowing I might and am often behind2. the fish don't "want me" to do anything.3. there's no equity being forfeited, opening and having to a fold to a LRR is forfeiting equity..I'm realizing my equity, you don't seem to know the definition of equity.4. It's not a limped pot that "I risked my entire stack" in...its a SR
My mistake on the limped pot, I can admit that. You still risked your stack with one pair.
My post is incoherent? Good one.
Ok so is this a situation where it's like If we're not calling with a Jack then what are we calling?
More like trying to learn something from this hand. Most of us had hero making an easy fold on the turn bc when the roles are reversed we have a lot of value and the fishes call and lose.
But maybe this is more of a gto situation w 2 good players, and if we call the flop with sets, Jx, and pocket pairs, we need to have some calls besides the sets.
More like trying to learn something from this hand. Most of us had hero making an easy fold on the turn bc when the roles are reversed we have a lot of value and the fishes call and lose.
But maybe this is more of a gto situation w 2 good players, and if we call the flop with sets, Jx, and pocket pairs, we need to have some calls besides the sets.
I mean, OP took a line (overlimp-call pre, xcall flop) where he is capped to a mediocre one pair or worse hand a vast majority of the time. If there is a strategic takeaway from this hand, I think it would be to avoid these spots. Coming out of this thread thinking that we sometimes have to call a turn overbet jam with TP to avoid overfolding from a GTO perspective seems like a strategy that burns money at low stakes. I can't count the number of times I have called a big turn or river bet thinking "my hand is face-up and villain is attacking my capped range" only to see that villain just had the nuts.
OFC turn could and probably should be a call if villain is a studied and/or aggro player, but the reads don't really suggest that.
Ok so is this a situation where it's like If we're not calling with a Jack then what are we calling
V bet into H and 4 other people ... I called 35 pre. so I guess I have to call off another 535 with 3rd best top pair and BDFD isn't really a GTO thing, although I guess I've never looked at a sim for 6 way bingo dry flops and there's basically no chance V's sizing is GTO.
We do have better here KJs/66/33, maybe even some QQ/AJ given H's reads. And all of that range should make it to the turn, if our hand does. We are folding a lot of range on the flop, even last to act, but if JTs is the worst hand we call flop with folding 6 combos. on turn to the 1.5x pot bet doesn't seem exploitably bad to me.
Also if the call was genius or bad depends a lot on what V had, which we'll never know ... also assumes that V bets in similar ways with QQ+/AJ/66 which is also up in the air.
FWIW if I saw this live my first thought wouldn't be that H is a genius. But also probably don't look for folds against V.
