2/5 ~ being pushed around by 4bets

Not trapping with AA when he 4!s to 300 and you have 600. He is never folding to a 1/2 pot shove. That would be a terrible play. Complete misuse of solver information.

take a look at 60bb 2.5x open which mimics the r/r more here i think (i see it 3b jamming aqo)

Amen.

As someone with little patience, poker is often a challenge. For me, tilt is running out of patience and trying to make something happen rather than wait for the game to come to me.

Betting a quarter of my stack OOP pre with AQo into an aggro table is absolutely not waiting for a good opportunity.

I'm not fully committed to this line. Convince me I'm wrong.

You're probably right but...There is a >0% chance V was on a total bluff or knows H can only have AA, so he folds to a 5B.

A call under reps your hand and gets him to the flop. Regardless of the flop, you're calling his jam w AA. And he's jamming almost every board because it's his only chance. In fact, if he checks, that's scary as he probably nailed the board and doesn't want to risk scaring you away.

So it's almost irrelevant whether you jam pre or not and it might even be +EV to keep him in with worse.

There are cases where you kept him in and he sucks out, but I don't think those significantly matter to strategy and EV calcs because he was highly likely to call your pre jam.

Absolutely.

And posting my own hands the day after trains me to see some obvious flaws to my reads and thought processes.

OP mentioned how he would play the hand if it was online, which is going to have smaller preflop sizings. Obviously in this live hand we are pure jamming AA once V puts in 50% of his stack.

this is just random variance. this is 2/5 live. you're not getting 4bet light pre. snap fold AQo without a second thought.

Doyle Brunson once said that he almost always folded AQo, a classic trouble hand.[/QUOTE]

Doyle also infamously played 10-2 so theres that to weigh
and Mason malmuth says no to AJ UTG

there are no universals

So it got me wondering in case, I get run over by 4bets again what kind of ranges I need.

Maybe TT+/AQ+ for 3b/5b jam. If V is does it polarized with a range of Axs/AT+/QQ+ we should be making money?
Of course in the real world probably only LP or lag/maniac opens this light and how much ppl 4bet light live is questionable.

what are you looking for in the thread?

i'm going to reiterate this which im sure is going to irritate you - it seems like you take alot of what's fairly standard preflop aggression from "regs" way too personally, likely because you aren't really playing theory / chart based.

i have no idea why would you run an equilab calc or why you're willing to do that but not look at solved pre ranges. you cannot get run over in a spot where you have ~8% of hands

Show me where Doyle said he almost always folded AQo.

So villain 4! AJo and folded it getting 3-1? I think that is a bad fold. AJo is better than 3-1 against any hand but AA. If you shoved AQ, you could have 99/TT, which he is about 45% against.

Also, not sure I like his play, leaving himself with a tough decision to a push and just hoping to get OP to fold preflop. Think he didn't want to fold a sort of good hand like AJ to a 3! and made a questionable play to avoid that.

I still think if people seem to be 4-betting light, it would have been better to flat call initially with AQ. You also don't want to get into guessing games like this.

So, what did you learn here?

If the takeaway is that V was getting OOL, that's one possible inference. But it could also be the case that your opponents were opening their 4B range a bit after seeing you fold to 4B's. They may have developed the impression that you had been OOL with your 3B's.

He had AJo. That may have been the absolute bottom of his 4B range. You jammed AQo. I'd think that's the absolute bottom of your 5B jam range. He may be OOL, but probably not wildly OOL.

V may have tank-folded because he realized he was OOL, and you probably weren't jamming 5B-jamming AT or worse, and maybe not TT/99, so your range has AJo crushed.

Note that the BTN called V's initial raise prior to your 3B. V may have been clicking it back to shut the BTN out and avoid going multi-way as monkey-in-the-middle. That seems like a more likely explanation than V and others at the table targeting your 3B's with 4B's.

When opponents are "coming after us", it's usually pretty obvious. Very often they'll comment on our play, or otherwise make it clear that for them, it's personal. Even when that happens, don't take it personally. Let them make mistakes driven by emotion. Look for spots to exploit those mistakes.

I too will ask, "what did you learn"?

Does the favorable result this time create a reproducible strategy with long term +EV?

Just be careful assuming its not just random chances of people having monsters vs. targeting you.

Ed Miller had an excellent section in one of his books about Bayesian Inference that addresses this.

Live 4bets don't always mean premiums like everyone was expecting.

I was probably a bit tilted in game. Turned out good this time.

But if I were to 3bet any hand when I assume I am facing 4bets all the time, it would probably with the intention of shipping and not 2nd guess once I get 4bet again.

That's a good lesson.

Something I try to do, but often fail at, is having my next couple of actions planned before I complete the current action.

What I don't want to have happen is I get surprised and give off deer in the headlights vibes. AI after a panic look is inviting the call which you don't typically want with AQo.

If when your V reraised, you asked for clarification of the number and you calmly said AI, that looks strong as hell.

A too quick action is often scared money, wild bluff. So asking for clarification of action gives a decent pause and appears to be springing the trap you've set.

That said, I only rarely play 5/10 because those games no longer exist within driving distance of home. Maybe those guys will see through it, but it works on my usual Vs at lower limits.

*grunch*

I think 3b/F is the line I would take here. Our hand being the offsuit varietal doesnt play all that great OOP multiway. Thinning the field and squeezing versus aggro is fine imo. I'd take a flop MW with the suited varietal looking to cooler someone with a flush.

Without seeing any showdowns from 4B hands I generally give them respect the first couple times around because lol small sample size and its LLSNL, light 4bets are rare.

Every time I think people are 'playing back at me' or 'running me over' with w/e...the answer invariably is that my sample size is too small and they actually just have the mortal nuts. With 125 out there already I'm probably just going to rip it but these goodbutnotmeganutted hands can also play as a call pre.

Hm...now I think a bit more about it.

Since everyone is overfolding to 4bets....I probably should 4bet jam uber light as an exploit vs ppl with a fold btn that light 3b.

Cold4betting super light vs wide vs wide configs should be profitable as well.

Those wouldn't necessarily be my takeaways.

Please do take note of the fact that V's initial raise got called by another player behind him, prior to your 3B. V is incentivized to re-raise, to squeeze that player out. Yes, he happened to be 4B'ing light in this hand, but he won't always be 4B'ing light.

He could as easily have QQ+/AK and want to get it in with you pre. Even if he called here, he was getting the correct price, so it's not as if your jam with AQ gave him the wrong price to call. If he called, you should only win around 75% of the time vs AJ, and you'll lose a lot more often than that vs QQ/AK+.

I would not assume any low-stakes player is capable of 4B'ing light unless and until I see them 4B light, especially if they're not starting super-deep. I would also urge you to consider what a "light" 4B means in specific situations.

With the player who called his initial raise still in the hand, his 4B here was "light", but it wasn't "LIGHT", if you know what I mean. Your raise put him in a difficult spot. Like I said, if he flat calls your 3B, the SPR will be under 2 on the flop, and that's assuming the other player DIDN'T over-call behind him. If that other guy calls, the SPR is around 1.5-ish.

I do think it's worth considering putting AQ into a flatting range, especially whenever you're not starting out very deep.

can you explain why you think folding AQo here is overfolding to a 4b? maybe figure out what % of hands you're 3betting and what % you think you need to continue vs the 4b. you keep citing whats ultimately a math problem without any actual math (and ignoring multiple solves showing the same thing). there are configurations you "need" to continue AQo but this isnt one of them. theres an awful lot of nuance in poker, even preflop, and i think you're not really appreciating that

if your takeaway is to monkey in stacks pre because of this hand, i think you're going to lose alot of money really quickly

Suppose this is villain's opening range in the CO which equates to about 22.5%

Suppose this is my 3betting range in the bb vs CO which equates to about 8.14%

Suppose V is 4betting this specific polarized range(Axs+/ATo+/JJ+) vs me which equates to about 9.05%

Suppose I only 5bet jam AK+/QQ+ and fold everything else which equates to about 2.56%
2.56/8.14 = I'm only jamming 31.45% of my 3bet range. The rest I'm folding(which seems like the theme from all the posts here).

Which literally means V 68.55% of the time is winning 182$ uncontested.
31.45% of the time getting it(assuming v is always pot committed with a 4bet) in with his polarized range(Axs+/ATo+/JJ+) vs my premium range(AK+/QQ+) with 33.48% total equity of risking in another 575 to win 1232, which equates to losing 162$ each time we have premiums.
= 68.55%(182) - 31.45%(162)
=124.76 - 50.95
=73.81
Villain is making 73.81$ everytime he 4bets such range.

Maybe my math is a bit wrong here and there, you can do it try it out yourself. But he's absolutely printing just putting in a 4bet if we only defend with premium range only.
Or you can argue 3betting 8% is too much?
Or you want to argue V isn't 4betting this much?
Or you want to argue GTO land V doesn't bluff this much?
Or you want to argue the range I gave is absolute dogshit?

I'm saying if we only 5bet premiums we are losing money if v 4bet light with the range I gave him.
I mean I guess I can tighten up my 3bet range to premiums only so that way I don't lose anything money from folding my 3bets to make it automatic profit for villain.
Yet you say you're fine with 3bet/folding AQo vs light 4bets.

Yes in GTO land, V doesn't 4bet bluff every single time even with such range. But we are not playing gto at least no one is in live!
You kept saying I should do this do that to follow GTO but do you really know wtf you're saying?
Have you done the math yourself?

Now let's assume I jam this range here everytime

Which equates to about 4.68% of hands
Which is 4.68/8.14=57.49% of my 3betting range.
Which means 42.51% of the time I'm folding, which means V auto wins 182$.
Which means 57.49% of the time I'm shoving, which means V with equity of 39.17% of risking in another 575 to win 1232, which equates to losing 92.43$ each time we shove such range.
=42.51%(182) - 57.49%(92.43)
=77.37 - 53.14
=24.23
V is still making 24$ everytime he 4bets such range if we folding so much of our 3bet range.
Which means....I probably shouldn't even be 3betting 8% of the hands or I should tighten my 3bet range and continue jamming on top when faced with such light 4bet range.

Maybe my math is wrong.
But it's obvious we always 3bet/folding such hand is making us lose money.
So my plan to counter villain's light 4bet is either 3bet tighter ranges or 5bet most of my 3bet range.

Of course we have no f***** clue wtf villain's actual 4bet range is. We can act like Villain has premiums every time and call it variance even when the whole table 4bets us 100% of the time.
So the plan to counter all of this even if we assume opponents are only doing it with premiums only is to 3bet premiums only ourselves.
Which means we'll be playing passively and not 3betting light for any time soon in the near future.
Then opponent picks up on this tell and only 4bet KK+, then you say, it's say variance bro, suck it up or quit poker.

the co 4betting range looks extremely wrong to me. you have him 4bing something like 3-5x too much with a tighter opening range than he has

why do you have such an objection to just looking at solved ranges? you can look at them for free on gtow. there's realistically no world where you're going to do better making up your own ranges and doing these ev calcs. you're getting bad information as the result of faulty inputs. seeing AJo here does not mean he pure 4bs ATo+ and axss+. i think thats a wild conclusion to draw from the information provided

you can also (and should) call 4bs