What is the ruling here?
Live action 8 handed NL. UTG raises 3x to open pot. Everyone folds to button who calls. SB and BB folds also.... Now the UTG player release his hand mucking, his cards touch the BB two cards.
Is his hand dead surrendering the pot to button? Is it possible for the BB to tell the floor what his two cards are thus giving UTG back his hand?
14 Replies
What do you mean UTG release his hand mucking? That sounds like a fold, in which case his hand is dead and button wins. But I think in low stakes games if the BBs cards merely "touch" the UTG cards before utg acted then it is within reason the hand is live as long as the cards are separate enough. I.e. there shouldn't be some magic "deadly touch"
My guess would be if the cards are easily retrievable / identifiable / separable from the BB cards that the hand would still be live. If the UTG / BB cards are all intermixed and it isn't obvious which is which then probably SOL.
Not a completely uncommon occurrence for someone in our game to "fold" after they raise not realizing someone has actually called, but usually it doesn't get to the point where their hand is irretrievable.
Gbestinterestofthegameandallthat,imoG
Sounds like UTG didn't realize BTN called the raise, and was just returning his cards to the dealer, expecting to be pushed the pot.
I'd think it's a floor decision maybe, to determine if UTG and BB's cards can be distinguished, or if they're both in the muck and BTN wins.
I did something similar once. Raised pre from UTG, then looked at my phone when someone texted me. I thought everyone folded. Flick my cards into the dealer, who mucks them before pushing the pot to the player who called without me realizing it.
My mistake, obviously. Dealer could have stopped and pointed out that I got called, and given me back my cards, but different rooms, different rules/standards, etc. If UTG's and BB's cards are all together, I could see them saying UTG's hand is dead.
I'm sure I've almost made the same mistake at least two or three times since then, in as many years. A momentary lapse in focus can cost us the pot.
Yup. UTG's cards simply touching BB's cards doesn't mean anything, but intermixed could. If they are jumbled, floor may, or may not, allow for UTG to whisper his holding and have it retrieved.
Quite possibly the worst option.
Cards that simply touch the muck, stub, other discards, etc are not automatically dead. If they are clearly identifiable and retrievable per the dealer, and potentially a check of the cameras, then the hand is live and we play on.
If the cards can not be identified, then the hand is dead and any uncalled bets are returned while the rest is forfeited. Which in this case means the BTN wins the whole pot as they now have the only live hand.
Room rules vary, but my ruling would be that if UTG's hand is 100% identifiable, they get it back and the hand plays on. If there is any question about which cards are which, button wins the pot.
Many years ago the rule was that if a mucked hand touches any cards in the muck pile then that hand is dead.
Since then things have changed in many rooms. I have seen clearly identifiable hands returned to the mucker and then they play on.
In this case it will depend on the room's rules. If their rule is that a mucked hand that touches the muck pile is clearly identifiable then the hand will be returned to the mucker, then the hand here would still be live. In theory the floor could rule it is dead if it is not 100% identifiable. And no, they can't have the BB look at their cards again to see if they were his.
If I were the BTN in this hand I would request that the hand be live and that we continue. Every now and again my requests which may be against the rules are allowed. Like if a SB doesn't see a raise and tries to limp in and then is required to lose the chip they put in. Every now and again everyone allows it to happen. Not in the WSOP $500 Colossus the other day where the extra 200 chips were forced to remain in a pot that I had raised preflop...
Why am I confused that you say bb folds…
Then you say there’s card touching and he wants back in.
I have really big hands - actual hands, not cards. When I am in the pot, nobody is touching my cards, so it’s never me.
It’s simply amusing to me when they call the floor for things like this. If they ask my opinion, they get that shrug I use when asked most questions at the table.
Why am I confused that you say bb folds…
Then you say there’s card touching and he wants back in.
I have really big hands - actual hands, not cards. When I am in the pot, nobody is touching my cards, so it’s never me.
It’s simply amusing to me when they call the floor for things like this. If they ask my opinion, they get that shrug I use when asked most questions at the table.
Read OP again. UTG raised, then mucked when they thought nobody called. BB's card were in the middle because they had just folded. This has nothing to do with protecting your hand.
Well, I dunno, protecting your hand extends to protecting it until you receive the pot I suppose. I never recommend firing your hand anywhere until you're getting the pot, if you think you should be winning it. (Though as a disclaimer, my home room does as a procedure take the winning hand and display it above the board at showdown, which means you can't easily protect it in that situation, though it is at least tabled.)
But having large hands or whatever isn't really material, I agree.
If you fold slowly then the dealer will probably be able to stop you in time. "he called you sir" cards returned to you since you pushed them sooo slowly the dealer had time to prevent you.
