1/2, $1700 deep: AA facing maniac whale’s turn jam
Villain is a complete maniac. Opens/calls virtually any two cards preflop and is the type of guy who will call $130 preflop with T5o, so assigning a normal range is basically impossible. He just opened $25 and called off a nit’s $320 3b jam with J6s. During the session he also put in $35 blind, got called, bet $75 on KJ4, faced a $500 shove, and snap-called with KTo (top pair) against K2o and scooped with a better kicker. He’s clearly not thinking in terms of ranges, pot odds, or stack depth.
It’s basically really hard to play with him when deep because you end up in situations like below:
Effective stacks: ~$1,700 (850bb)
Preflop:
V (UTG) opens to $7, 2 callers.
Hero (BB) has A♠A♣ and 3-bets to $50.
UTG calls, others fold.
Flop ($115): K♣ 5♦️ 4♠
Hero bets $50.
Villain snapraises to $225.
Hero calls.
Turn ($565): 2♦
Hero checks.
Villain snapjams for $1,400 effective.
My questions:
1. Do you prefer c-betting or checking AA on this flop versus this type of player?
2. After betting and facing the raise, is flop always a call, or is there merit to 3-betting/folding?
3. Facing the turn jam, is this a call or fold given the player profile?
What’s interesting is that because villain literally plays any two cards, he can absolutely show up with weird value hands like A3o, 63o, 54o, etc. But at the same time, he’s capable of arriving here with a ton of nonsense and deciding to blast off.
The turn jam is about 2.5x pot. Holding A♠A♣, I don’t block any diamond draws.
Curious how others would approach this spot and whether they’d actually find a fold with AA 850bb deep against this type of opponent.
One thing I’m struggling with is how much weight to give previous showdowns.
While the KTo hand proves he’s capable of massively overvaluing one-pair hands, I’m not sure it proves he’s willing to blast off for 850bb. Curious how much that distinction changes people’s opinions on the turn decision.
18 Replies
You didn't include any info about villain's post-flop tendencies. Is he overbluffing?
It's kind of hard to give guidance on the spot without better reads, but I will give a crack at it: I think checking and cbetting small are viable to try and induce bluffs from an overbluffer. If he's the type that will just call down with any piece, I would cbet much bigger (and raise bigger too.)
If he overbluffs, you have to call him down a lot, so I don't think there is any shame in leaving the table if you are uncomfortable taking $3500 swings at $1/$2. In this spot, I would probably call given that we likely have six outs to improve if we are behind and are probably just ahead a lot of the time. Obviously, it's a snap-fold versus a loose-passive whale type.
Preflop if he's open/calling atc then you need to size up to like 200
Turn is super read dependent. Nobody here has the right answer for you.
I think your major error is calling V's flop raise.
What could you hope to accomplish with a call? A call isn't going to slow down a maniac. In fact, it just encouraged him to slap you in the face with what he thinks is his impressive and hairy deck. As deep as you are, you either have to commit to the hand and 3B big here or fold before you're deeply invested in the hand.
I'm going to admit to a major weakness in my game. If I've sat there all day and built up a 5 or 6x BI pile, I'm not going to risk it all with nothing but top pair. I'm going to fold, rack up, go home and book a major win. Wins that big don't happen often so I would be happy with it.
That said, I think the right poker move would have been to 3X or even shove his flop raise. It's never a big error to scoop another BI. If he flopped 2P, so be it, you have a few outs. But if he's on any sort of draw, you want to extract the maximum from him to get there.
I think your major error is calling V's flop raise. What could you hope to accomplish with a call? A call isn't going to slow down a maniac. In fact, it just encouraged him to slap you in the face with what he thinks is his impressive and hairy deck. As deep as you are, you either have to commit to the hand and 3B big here or fold before you're deeply invested in the hand.
Why would you possibly 3b vs a polarized range and make him fold everything worse?
I think I fully explained why. I don't want to risk a huge stack. Lock down a BI pot or extract max pain if he's on a draw. Since you admittedly can't put him on a range other than ATC, are you going to call his big bet on any turn?
I just don't place huge value on TP. I'll bet with it, but I prefer not to call with it.
Grunch:
PRE - seems fine. I like the big 3B. Might still go a tad bigger, but your sizing seems fine.
FLOP - I'd either check or bet big, like full pot.
Reasoning - we either want to let him bluff so we can bluff catch, or we want to get max value from his worse hands. We don't want to try to milk him for value using small bets, because that's going to induce him to do a lot of raising, and we'll have to choose between playing our hand face up, or allowing him to dictate the pot size by surrendering control of the betting to him.
As played, I don't think I'd fold to his raise, but I'd be proceeding cautiously.
TURN - I'd fold. I don't think it's all that close.
Maniacs get paid because they show down all sorts of marginal stuff. But usually they're calling with marginal hands, not bluffing with them, when their opponents show nothing but strength. When they blast off, they tend to have it.
Like, if we check, he'll probably bet his entire range, and probably barrel, before giving up on the river, or deciding to check back with SDV at some point. But if we bet, he'd just call with KX. He'd raise if he can beat AK.
Maniacs are the ultimate IO players. They'll VPIP super-wide, knowing that they can credibly rep ATC on a lot of board textures, and they can go for max value in cooler situations.
I'd think he flopped 2P or a set, and is targeting your KQ+ type hands to pay him off.
I think I fully explained why. I don't want to risk a huge stack. Lock down a BI pot or extract max pain if he's on a draw. Since you admittedly can't put him on a range other than ATC, are you going to call his big bet on any turn?
I just don't place huge value on TP. I'll bet with it, but I prefer not to call with it.
We don’t have TP, we have an overpair. The distinction is important because we unblock TP.
This is a rainbow board, there aren’t many bluffable draws here except 76/63, which makes his raise far more concerning IMO.
Grunch:PRE - seems fine. I like the big 3B. Might still go a tad bigger, but your sizing seems fine.FLOP - I'd either check or bet big, like full pot. Reasoning - we either want to let him bluff so we can bluff catch, or we want to get max value from his worse hands. We don't want to try to milk him for value using small bets, because that's going to induce him to do a lot of r
Yeah don’t really like my flop line vs described player. He loves to do the betting/raising, never the calling, so check OOP>>>>bet against him.
If I blast pot on flop, he snap folds most of his ATC range, but may go crazy if I check.
It's only a 2x overbet. Against an opponent who is capable of an aggressive multi Street bluff it's an easy call. If V does have 2p+ we probably have 6 outs and based on description we are simply well ahead of something like Kx or pair+ FD a lot.
I disagree with 3! flop, I think that turns our hand face up and even a maniac finds a fold. Flat to keep him bluffing, and now on the turn this is what you wanted to induce, call.
If you're folding here, you should probably rack up, because this style of player is going to run you over.
Yeah don’t really like my flop line vs described player. He loves to do the betting/raising, never the calling, so check OOP>>>>bet against him.
If I blast pot on flop, he snap folds most of his ATC range, but may go crazy if I check.
I do a ton of checking when facing maniacs. They'll over-stab IP when checked to or when they're OOP and the prior street checks through.
It's hard to not bet for value when we have it, but we're face up if we bet with value and check when we're weak. Range betting is just torching vs this player type. The solution is range checking.
I try to play smaller pots when OOP or whenever my hand isn't nutted, because the maniac can apply max pressure and pounce on perceived weakness at any time. He's always got a bet or raise loaded in the chamber.
AA is basically the nut bluff-catcher vs a range of ATC on this board. We can probably just check-call flop and turn, then check-evaluate the river. The maniac will often give up and check back in that line.
This is a bit off topic/irrelevant.
The other day I was talking to a maniac/hyper aggro after game. His thoughts weren't as crazy as you'd expect.
He was ranging opponents based on sizing/actions just like us.
But according to him he only take stabs here and there knowing you're weak. He tells me how he shutsdown after others calling big cbets on dry A flops.
When he improves he gets max value from his image.
He will also barrel/bluff w/semi bluffs but once he gets there he also gets crazy amounts of value.
He also mentions sometimes he goes into gambling mode chasing the impossible draws.
He also speaks about how most of the table are out to get him. So he knows his image and acts what he deems is correct. Yes he's super loose preflop but he's playing hands like 23s to outflop/outplay you. So preflop is like his biggest leak. Postflop he isn't as stupid as you'd think he is.
He mentioned how he open folded trips w/A kicker on river to piss his opponent off
So when we play with maniacs, just don't think everyone is as crazy as you think. Or think they're free money. Some are but most of them die out quickly. The ones that survive still knows a bit of wtf they're doing.
OP description was only preflop. There weren't much of his postflop plays. If we were to put some sanity into villain, his value would be 2p+, and some semi bluffs(st8draws).
I guess if he had no clue wtf he's doing he's shipping w/Tpnk as well? as an overvalue maniacal whale?
i'm not folding. would check flop though.
From my computer this is an easy call. I don't know if I can make it in-game though.
I assume he turned equity and has something like Kd3d or some crap like that. If he has a set, I think we were always going broke against this type of Villain.
On the other hand, he did open fwiw. He may just have a standard AK haha. If we cannot make this call, which is okay and understandable, we should change tables.
Going like $150 preflop, maybe more, couldn't be too wrong vs this villain. We know he's probably got Cracking aces and Big Bluff on his bingo card and it's hard to tell which one it is this time... I do see the examples have more calling mistakes but we didn't really give him the opportunity to do that.
So any similar hands where V was the one putting in the last bet?
1) Yeah, but he isn't betting $1000 out of a $1400 stack. If you want to 2x the pot, then you're rounding up to all in. So in terms of theoretical soundness, its a 2x overbet.
2) Sure and with the random $1/$2 player you should snap fold 44 here. But I think its been established by the HHs that this isn't a random $1/$2 player. It's obviously someone who doesn't particularly care about the money. It doesn't matter if it gigantic for the random player, it matters if it is gigantic to him. Now I get it if you don't want to risk getting coolered for $1400 in a $1/$2 game where you either can't or aren't willing to match the stack. But if that's the case then maybe best to rack up your winnings because this type of player is going to be relentless with the pressure and if he thinks he can get you to lay down everything but the nuts, then he's going to take a few hundred at a time. Because if you're folding AA here, what hands are you ever calling with? KK is the only better hand you plausibly have.
Your hand as played absolutely looks like AK. I'd expect a hyperaggressive opponent to exploit that with maximum pressure that AK is going to have a really hard time calling. AK is calling pot, it isn't comfortable calling with AK to 2.5x pot I expect most $1/$2 players probably won't. The reality is that he probably does have some 2p, sets and maybe even A3 here, and his bluffs probably include a lot of FDs so you're going to lose a decent chunk of the time, maybe as high as 30-40% of the time. Which really sucks if the buy-in is capped. Though given the observations you posted here, I'm reasonably confident that V isn't jamming only the nuts here.
I hate your 3B size pre flop. We know he called $320 raise with just $25 of his in the pot. Why are we only betting $50? If our future play is going to be based on the read he will play ATC for any amount put that theory to the test with your 3 bet.
Against a player like this the goal is to get the money in preflop, not postflop. Vs a $7 open and a couple of callers I'm going to make it $75, maybe even $100. We want him to just detonate. HE wants to blast off. He's in this for the thrill. A crazy preflop overbet isnt going to scare him off. You could show him AA and he might just jam for the pleasure of cracking it. He's a degen in the best possible way so indulge him. Let him know he could win 10k tonight playing 1/2 if he keeps gambling.
I dont have much to say postflop because he is absolutely going to be binking random 2 pairs, sets and stuff all the time. I dont expect him to really be running bluffs, he just wants to make hands. He isnt going to show up with T9o, but he will have literally anything that could runner runner. On this flop I probably just YOLO it and make it 3x pot or something hoping he just rips another KTo type hand hoping to hit 2 pair.
