Big flop raise with two overs, the nut-flush draw, and the gut-shot nut-straight draw
1/3. Rake/promo/tip is 6+3+2 to 60. Hero (515) has been at the table for one orbit. V (1,700) has called one limp and one open-raise. He folded the flop both times.
OTTH
V opens 10 UTG. LJ and BTN call. Hero to 60 in BB with AdKh. V calls. LJ calls. BTN folds. Three-way
Flop (180):QdTd4d.
Hero bets 60. V raises to 200. LJ folds. Hero?
I feel like I’m stuffing it here and letting it happen.
12 outs twice vs a set. 7 vs a flopped flush. More vs pair + draw combos. Can't fold
not sure you have much FE but I think this is a get it in spot
Bad post.... misread flop
PRE - seems like a spot we could 3B bigger. Reasoning is mostly just that V opened UTG, which should be a tight range, and also because his open is small and we kinda want more money in the pot so we can threaten his stack on later streets.
FLOP - I think we could check or bet really small here, like $30. As played, it's kind of a weird spot, because we know V doesn't have the nuts, and we know he knows he doesn't have the nuts, so he's either getting way out of line, or he doesn't GAF and has a set or some sort of super-combo draw like KJdd and he's never folding.
So...I dunno. I definitely wouldn't fold. Not sure I see the point in raising or jamming, because that just makes his decision easy. I guess call, and plan to donk river huge if he checks back on the turn, which is what I'm expecting to happen here, unless the board pairs, at which point we have a pretty easy check-fold.
PRE - seems like a spot we could 3B bigger. Reasoning is mostly just that V opened UTG, which should be a tight range, and also because his open is small and we kinda want more money in the pot so we can threaten his stack on later streets.FLOP - I think we could check or bet really small here, like $30. As played, it's kind of a weird spot, because we know V doesn't have the n
Why do you want to bet so small? We have a ton of outs but we have A high and the board smashes our range
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If he doesn’t have the made flush you’re a 75% favorite. It kinda hinges on whether you think this guy would do this without a flush.
If he has KdJd, he’s a 75% favorite - any other flush still leaves him about 70% ahead of you. If the turn bricks, it gets worse, now you only have about a 15% chance to win.
He’s bet half your stack, so if you don’t fold, a jam is probably better than a call. Anything can happen, so if you call and hit, you’re going to win. You have about 30% chance to hit the flush by the river.
All we know is the last 2 times he folded on the flop, but he didn’t fold this time. It’s either let him have the 60, or jam with likely much less than a 50% chance to win. I don’t see him folding.
To be that deep, he’s probably winning this session. Until I better understand his game, I’m going to let it go. Call me a nit.
How do people range V?
QQ, TT, 44, QTs, KdJd, Jd9d, 8d7d, 7d6d, 6d5d, KdJh, KdJs, KdJc
Am I missing hands?
To defend the raise preflop: Why would you want to go 4-way to the flop oop? If hero called, he'd have to play the hand passively. Hero would fold or check-call all flops. The pot would be small. In low stakes, AKo is a big hand. By raising big against V2 and V3 who folded, the hero found a spot with 70 in dead money (60 after the rake).
It is actually close to a raise. You are behind 2 pair and a big underdog against a flush or set. Somewhat ahead of a pair and flush draw. Hard to find hands he does this with that we are way ahead of.
Small cbet seems bad. Bet large or check. Maybe checkraise.
Why do you want to bet so small? We have a ton of outs but we have A high and the board smashes our range
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In general / according to theory - we're supposed to c-bet smaller in multi-way pots, and we're supposed to c-bet smaller on monotone boards. So when the board is monotone AND it's multi-way, we should bet REALLY small.
The reasoning is that the threshold for value-betting in multi-way pots is higher, and if we want opponents to call with hands that aren't flushes, we need to give them a better price.
As a bonus, we risk less / lose less when we're bluffing, as we are here. Players at all stakes are going to over-fold to smaller bets on monotone boards, because the threshold for calling is higher. They need to have some hope of improving to a nutted hand if they're not nutted already.
Also, betting small gives opponents a chance to raise, which we'd love when we have value, and don't really mind when we don't, since it makes our decisions easier. Betting huge and getting raised here would suck. At a certain point, we're committing ourselves to getting it in with A high and a draw on the flop or turn.
If we're going to bet small with value and huge with bluffs, or vice-versa, observant opponents will be able to easily exploit us. The way to play this is to check or bet small, with value and bluffs.
How do people range V?
QQ, TT, 44, QTs, KdJd, Jd9d, 8d7d, 7d6d, 6d5d, KdJh, KdJs, KdJc
Am I missing hands?
It would be easier to range V if we knew more about him.
The population isn't likely to be getting too OOL here. He's going to have 2P+ for value, and 1P+FD or some sort of combo-draw for semi-bluffs.
Factor in some slivers of random noise / nonsense / spaz if he's wild and / or deep-stacked and / or drinking and / or you think he just doesn't like your face.
Range is something with SDV + a draw that is a flush or better. So a set, top 2 (less likely IMO with his big reraise), made flush with lower cards that fears a 4th flush that kills him (highly likely).
If V is a real action player, he might also have a bluff in there because he would think H isn't leading if H has a made flush. But I rarely run into those players at 1/2 or 1/3.
I agree with Freecard that AP, this is shove or fold. Since I don't think FE figures into the possibility, I fold because I try to not put myself in situations where I'm behind and have to catch to win. In general, I want to be aggro betting but nit calling and our shove would be effectively a call.
Backing up to the flop, this is a weird spot in that H almost has an obligatory lead because of his big bet pre. But a x/r should be a serious consideration because if I really caught the flush, I wouldn't be leading. If V bets huge to my check, I can walk away. He bets small I can put him to the test with a 200 bet or take a cheap card to the turn. I like my options by checking.
It would be easier to range V if we knew more about him...The population isn't likely to be getting too OOL here.
I got a good read on him later but not in the first orbit because I was mostly watching other players. I did notice his stack size, and his talk about the previous hands led me to believe he was a bad LAG, limping sometimes, bluffing too much, but I wasn't confident enough in my read to bet my whole stack. As you write, the population rarely gets out of line here: a raise on a monotone board is always a strong hand.
Results
Hero jammed. V tanks and asks hero, “why would you bet small with a flush? Do you have a set of queens?” V calls.
Hero says, “I’m on a draw.” V turns over TT.
River: Jh
Hero says I got there. V says hero doesn’t have a flush. Hero says I got a straight.
a x/r should be a serious consideration because if I really caught the flush, I wouldn't be leading.
That was what V was thinking in the tank.
Not trying to be rude
But is this considered a good play or did you just get lucky?
Still not sure based on the comments. My guess is hero had the equity for the shove but barely.
Did I mention the hero is on a heater in 2026? Getting lucky is his fate right now.
Hero needs 36 percent equity to shove 395 to win 1090. The shove is +ev only if you give V KdJx or some unlikely combos like AQo.
Equity / Range
41 percent / QQ, TT, 44, QTs, KdJd, Jd9d, 8d7d, 7d6d, 6d5d, KdJh, KdJs, KdJc
32 percent / QQ, TT, 44, QTs, KdJd, Jd9d, 8d7d, 7d6d, 6d5d
Am I missing something?
no, it's a close spot but a jam. 3bet pre is fine and flop bet is fine too. this isn't a bet large spot otf either. freecard's a nit.
To defend the raise preflop: Why would you want to go 4-way to the flop oop? If hero called, he'd have to play the hand passively. Hero would fold or check-call all flops. The pot would be small. In low stakes, AKo is a big hand. By raising big against V2 and V3 who folded, the hero found a spot with 70 in dead money (60 after the rake).
Pot is $34(?) when action on hero?
How did you decide on $60 as the sizing?
The small flop bet is likely fine in theory, but what does it accomplish in practice? Someone is going to have a piece of this board almost always. We're going to get called a lot, sometimes by multiple players, and be in no man's land on the turn when we don't improve.
Even when we get there we're going to have a tough time extracting value.
Also, when we bet small and get raised, such as happened here, we're in an awkward spot with effective stack sizes, where no option is great.
I much prefer checking the flop with our exact hand. If it goes something like small bet, call then we can check raise and have real fold equity. If someone bets big we can just call to avoid stacking off with an equity disadvantage. If it checks through we realize equity for cheap.
I think a lot more good things can happen when we start with a flop check, read the action and respond accordingly. We should be checking a fair amount anyway OOP and multiway in this spot.
