Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions
Use this thread if you have a potentially standard question, a line check, some other nonsense that is not threadworthy.
Somewhat annoying preflop spot with the fish... somewhat new to this table.
1/2, Hero (UTG) opens AKo to 10.
Folds to older gentleman BTN with about $250 in stacks of 10 chips min-raises to 20. Loose-passive SB fish ($180 or so?) calls cold, BB folds.
Hero (covers)...?
Click it back to $40. C-bet all flops. Play it like you'd play AA.
Mostly agree, you either win a $50 pot or flip/crushed if you get 5bet for $500 (Eg. 88 being more common than AQs).
The min. raise "often" means it's weaker, but often here is probably like 60% not 80%. Like someone 3bet AA/KK stupidly small probably happens in my 1-2 games every 40 hours or so.
Any reads would be great ... apart from that I'd lean towards going bigger than usual (so 100+ instead of 80+) to put max pressure on BTN and make it obvious to SB that we are playing for stacks, unless you think you can 3bet fold then 55-65 but 1-2 players could just shrug call that with whatever.
Technically the solver calls HU a lot, but if CO calls and BTN 3bets then it's a very low freq. call (obv. cold calling 3bets isn't a thing in solver land).
Putting simple ranges in (which are very debatable), you are basically flipping:
ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.3 P...
Holdem, Generic syntax
PLAYER_1 AxKy
PLAYER_2 (AA,KK)@40,(99-QQ,AK,AQ,AxJx)@60
600000 trials (randomized)
All-in Equity
[table=head]|Equity %|Wins Hi %|Ties Hi %|Wins Hi Count|Ties Hi Count|
AxKy|50.9877%|41.9018%|18.1717%|251411|109030|
(AA,KK)@40,(99-QQ,AK...|49.0123%|39.9265%|18.1717%|239559|109030|
[/table]
...but note that the 20 combos. you are crushing are doing a lot of work there:
ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.3 P...
Holdem, Generic syntax
PLAYER_1 AxKy
PLAYER_2 (AA,KK)@20,(88-QQ,AK,AxQx)@80
600000 trials (randomized)
All-in Equity
[table=head]|Equity %|Wins Hi %|Ties Hi %|Wins Hi Count|Ties Hi Count|
AxKy|45.8472%|35.7008%|20.2928%|214205|121757|
(AA,KK)@20,(88-QQ,AK...|54.1528%|44.0063%|20.2928%|264038|121757|
[/table]
Mostly agree, you either win a $50 pot or flip/crushed if you get 5bet for $500 (Eg. 88 being more common than AQs).
The min. raise "often" means it's weaker, but often here is probably like 60% not 80%. Like someone 3bet AA/KK stupidly small probably happens in my 1-2 games every 40 hours or so.
Yeah, exactly.
For the people suggesting a larger 4-bet sizing (including you I guess 😀 ), I assume the plan is to call a 5-bet jam since it would be for less than pot even with an $80 size?
I'm not sure I see a lot of merit in the sizing tbh. 4-betting at all feels a little bit suspect because, as you note, we are probably only marginally ahead of BTN here and I really doubt we are ahead of BTN's continuing range facing an $80+ 4-bet. We have to be hoping for something like a wider, weak calling range and blast-offs from premiums?
Without the cold call from SB, I actually think this is a pretty obvious flat. IMO, AKo plays pretty terribly in a low-SPR 4bp, especially OOP and especially one where you can't credibly play off a solver's comically polar range with its little fragments of 40 different combos to cover the board and bluff with. BTN is going to have a large number of pairs here and AK will heavily under-realize versus a fish playing fit-or-fold. I think this is part of why it quickly gets put into solvers' preflop jamming ranges - essentially it's really bad to be pot-committed with a hand that diminishes slowly in equity unless it spikes. You "have to" stay in but the dead money giving you the odds was yours to start with, where V folds immediately when you hit.
For that reason, if BTN were a decent reg who had 3b a more normal size, jamming seems the obvious play to me. Probably flipping versus a calling range and we average out to chopping up the dead fish money.
It feels bad to flat and not punish the SB though.
Alarm bells definitely went off for me at the min-click that this was AA looking for action, but I agree the rest of the time it's a weaker range. 40% AA/KK seems maybe right for a relative unknown; the thing is it's just not quite as intuitive to 3-bet at all with a hand that is "so weak I want to use a small sizing" when cold calling an open is a super-standard fish play.
Result:
Spoiler
I decided to go for a small 4b of $50. Thinking was it's likely to provoke an extremely unbalanced 5b range from BTN and also I'm not even sure what the solver would do facing this with SB fish in the middle. HU, BTN really can't balance and should never 5b (fractions of combos do it), but a flat offering SB 4:1 to come along is probably pressure to break that.
BTN snap jams, SB and Hero fold.
I talked BTN into showing KK.
2/5, 8 hands, $1200 BI
V1 - old WG, definitely not OMC, action player who has accumulated a stack of over $2500 at its peak. He has probably had a stroke, uses a powered wheel chair, and mumbles every action. I'm sitting on his left and can't distinguish his "call" from "all in". Likes to overbet the pot a lot. I've seen him bet the flop $200 when the pot was $60, and $100 when the pot was $40.
2 hands prior I rivered nut flush vs his flopped nut straight. That cost him $1000 of his stack and doubled me up. He didn't raise big when he had the nuts.
V2 - OWW who greatly dislikes me for owning her every week. She bleeds chips, losing $2-3K every time I've seen her play. If you've ever seen Jeff Dunham's Walter, picture Walter with bright red lips.
V1 - limps UTG +2, I raise to 30, V2 calls from BU, SB calls.
Flop $120 TT7r.
SB x
V1 - AI for $740
H - holds KT. Is there any viable action from me that is not AI?
Yep. I think if you’re beat you’re beat, but this villain seems like he’d do that with every 10 and maybe some other hands
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Yeah, exactly.For the people suggesting a larger 4-bet sizing (including you I guess 😀 ), I assume the plan is to call a 5-bet jam since it would be for less than pot even with an $80 size?I'm not sure I see a lot of merit in the sizing tbh. 4-betting at all feels a little bit suspect because, as you note, we are probably only marginally ahead of BTN here and I really doubt w
Idk, you guys must play in way way nittier games than me.
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Yep. I think if you’re beat you’re beat, but this villain seems like he’d do that with every 10 and maybe some other hands
weird but happy result. V2 insta called with T9, my trip Ts held and V1 didn't show but took over a minute to fold. All I could guess was he had 89. Both Vs went home. Everyone was flummoxed by the action.
weird but happy result. V2 insta called with T9, my trip Ts held and V1 didn't show but took over a minute to fold. All I could guess was he had 89. Both Vs went home. Everyone was flummoxed by the action.
Wait...he jammed all in, you re-jammed, she called, and when you turned your hand over, he took a minute to muck his cards?
WTF?
I hope you or someone else at the table called him out for holding up the game that way. Refusing to muck or show for more than a few seconds is inexcusable IMO.
That $hlt makes my inner ranger come out, guns a blazin'...
Really is amazing I don't have more friends.
No, he was old as dirt. Several people had to move their chairs so that he could motor his way out of the room.
I was happy to see all very respectful, but yeah, I thought a few things.
Mostly I was happy to once again felt the old woman because she was a jerk last week. The floor ruled my bomb pot ante had to stay in the pot even though the dealer accidentally did not deal to me. The floor said the winner could refund me. She won and said no. I said nothing to her because she's really good for the game.
Wait...he jammed all in, you re-jammed, she called, and when you turned your hand over, he took a minute to muck his cards?WTF?I hope you or someone else at the table called him out for holding up the game that way. Refusing to muck or show for more than a few seconds is inexcusable IMO. That $hlt makes my inner ranger come out, guns a blazin'...Really is amazing I don't have m
Ha!
If you were playing in my pool I’d find a way to slow roll you!
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Think I played this hand too scared after previous hh and lost value.
1/3 500 effective
I open QJdd UTG and +1 and HJ call
UTG +1 is a known whale who straddles button for 20 and very gambly but its early in the night and he's not drunk yet so he's playing very tame by his standards right now
V is HJ middle aged Indian seems fishy I've only been at the table 30 minutes but he's very call happy pre. Not that long ago I tripled off on A 6 8r Q T and he jammed river I folded AJ. I considered checking river and was kind a little frustrated after the hand wondering if the 3rd barrel is an overplay.
Anyway this hand flop comes
Flop Qs Tc 6c (45)
I 30 only hj calls
Turn (105) Ks
x x
River (105) 5s
x x and my hand is good
Feel like I should probably have bet either turn or river here but think I got a little spooked by the previous hand and went into check call down mode
Think I played this hand too scared after previous hh and lost value. 1/3 500 effectiveI open QJdd UTG and +1 and HJ callUTG +1 is a known whale who straddles button for 20 and very gambly but its early in the night and he's not drunk yet so he's playing very tame by his standards right nowV is HJ middle aged Indian seems fishy I've only been at the table 30 minutes but he's ve
I doubt QJs is profitable for me in my game in EP so I just fold it, but I'm also a giant nit waiting for Aces.
Against a fishy call happy player I'm probably betting the turn as there is still a lotta hands to get value from. Although would suck to get raised off our OESD so that would be one reason to check.
When the turn checks thru I think I have the best hand always on this river. If he's bluffy I wouldn't mind a check/call, but against a call happy player this is an easy 1/3 PSB value bet for me.
GcluelessNLnoobG
I've never seen a live game that is tight enough to make QJs a profitable UTG open IMO. Cutoff, maybe hijack, is fine.
Serious.
Maybe my games are much looser than yours.
I mean even if the game is loose are we really that worried about going multiway with a smooth suited broadway? I just expect at 1/3 given that we are unlikely to be 3bet very often this should be a profitable open. What's your UTG opening range then if it doesn't include QJs?
I mean even if the game is loose are we really that worried about going multiway with a smooth suited broadway? I just expect at 1/3 given that we are unlikely to be 3bet very often this should be a profitable open. What's your UTG opening range then if it doesn't include QJs?
We're not getting 3bet very often -- but we're going multiway OOP very often and will have to play mostly face up. I think we're still under realizing our equity.
My UTG and UTG+1 RFI range is TT+, AQs+, AK. My button RFI range and button ISO ranges are pretty ridiculously loose however.
Why do you have to play face up with QJss? It’s a triple threat hand. Makes no sense?
Idk I also fold AJo from EP but I open J10ss+ and some pairs depending on the table. Plus some suited Ace Wheels
If you don’t then you’re super easy to play against on a ton of boards
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Why do you have to play face up with QJss? It’s a triple threat hand. Makes no sense?
Idk I also fold AJo from EP but I open J10ss+ and some pairs depending on the table. Plus some suited Ace Wheels
If you don’t then you’re super easy to play against on a ton of boards
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+1 i dont understand this (strawman) argument either.
If we are opening a proper range from early pos,how can we possibly be playing faceup opening QJs?
My bottom of range is also AJo from early. Some lineups i open it,some lineups i dont.
+1 i dont understand this (strawman) argument either.
If we are opening a proper range from early pos,how can we possibly be playing faceup opening QJs?
My bottom of range is also AJo from early. Some lineups i open it,some lineups i dont.
These are interesting comparisons to me. I think QJs has the advantage of being more clearly defined on the flop. So much depends on stack sizes, and on how much a player values the Right of First Bluff, but there are many situations where QJs is a stronger hand.
Also, when trying to understand how my opponents play, how they play AJo and QJs is a big indicator for me.
but we're going multiway OOP very often and will have to play mostly face up. I think we're still under realizing our equity.
This is also true of KK in EP and I'm probably going to open that.
Idk I also fold AJo from EP but I open J10ss+ and some pairs depending on the table. Plus some suited Ace Wheels
If you don’t then you’re super easy to play against on a ton of boards
Change A5s/A4s with 87s/76s and I agree. A5s/A4s play much better when people understand they should fold AJo in MP to your open, which is 2-5 or higher IME.
Not trying to be a dick, but how well do you think you played this hand?
And with that in mind, it still just becomes auto-profitable, for *you*, UTG, cuz "top 10% hand"?
My guess is that experts could squeeze out some profit with this hand from this spot, so if you're an expert, then obviously don't fold it. I'm not an expert, plus I'm also a giant nit, so I fold it. My guess would be almost any non-expert player would be better off lopping off the bottom percentage of hands they currently play in EP (ones they think are profitable for them but likely are actually decent losers).
Gbut,Iamagiantnit,sothere'sthatG
Yes, but we're still going to be profitable with KK even under realizing. I didn't intend "any hand that under realizes equity is a fold, KK under realizes, therefore KK is a fold."
When I say face up multiway OOP, I mean that it's going to be very difficult to win any pots where we don't hit the flop (even our one pair hands face a decent amount of RIO).
100% I have board coverage issues with my EP RFI range.
I suppose we'll all should have different ranges that we use to exploit our differing games.
Yes, but we're still going to be profitable with KK even under realizing. I didn't intend "any hand that under realizes equity is a fold, KK under realizes, therefore KK is a fold."When I say face up multiway OOP, I mean that it's going to be very difficult to win any pots where we don't hit the flop (even our one pair hands face a decent amount of RIO).100% I have board covera
The arguement that its gonna be hard winning the pot if we dont hit the flop in some way is true for all very multiway pots,even in position alot of the time.
I have played a boatload of hours in 1/3 NL games in multiple different countries through the years,and i cant ever recall facing a lineup where i woudnt feel comfortable opening QJs.
IMO the feeling some players gets that they play faceup is due to range construction and/or other parts or their game that is not well calibrated.What you say about board coverage issues with your opening range is likely a part of the problem in your case yeah.
Its like the super nits feel like they are always playing faceup when 3 betting pre-yeah,of course you are when you only 3 bet QQ+ or AK.
The arguement that its gonna be hard winning the pot if we dont hit the flop in some way is true for all very multiway pots,even in position alot of the time.
A heuristic I often repeat to myself (to help avoid overplaying in MW pots) is that merely going 3 ways to a flop is direct odds to flop a pair.
There's obviously a ton more nuance to playing postflop, but I find it helpful to remember that simply folding every single time you don't "hit" the flop isn't actually that bad (again, not advocating literally doing this, but thinking it can help you internalize the lower continue frequencies facing multiple opponents).
As applied to the original post here, it seems fine to passively check-call down with a weak TP and leading for b67 feels like an overplay.
