KJss at desert oasis

Not a big fan of this game structure. It's basically a $10/$20 game where the buy-in is capped at 50bb, so your edge over the fish is going to be minimized. I don't know anything about your bankroll situation (and wouldn't presume to ask) but I am personally a bankroll nit and wouldn't want to take such a big swing in a spot where we are going to be gambling a bunch.

As for the hand, it seems standard-ish to this point. I don't think calling is bad (I wouldn't bluff river if we miss -- just take a price to draw) but we have about a pot-sized raise behind, so shoving could be best. Your story is credible and I expect that we have decent FE versus this sizing.

Agree with Elmcityboy here about the game structure. In that regard, KJs may just be an open fold with the straddle on even from MP. I'm looking to play a short stack strategy here 50 bb deep and just blast away with the nuts and have a few beers. This is a Gobbledygook game structure and he is probably on the wait list.........

As to the HH: preflop is debatable but here we are.

Flop: x is standard I think mw.

Turn: I'm concerned from the preflop action that the NF is out there. We maybe drawing very thin to just the nut straight.

What are the BB's leads here given the preflop action? He took a cold 165 to the face not closing the action. Probably TT, which he may just jam, and AsTs or maybe As8s. 87s would just jam also. Yes it's live poker and he can do anything I suppose. Banana says he plays monsters slow, so maybe he has TT or 99 and is just slowplaying.

In any case, I'm folding this on my better, sober nights. I realize nobody drives out to the desert to fold this hand, but that's what I recommend...

What story would we be telling with a shove here? We have TT/99? Jacks? Some of the time you'd be 4-betting JJ+ at this shallow depth tho not sure your opponents get to the same conclusion. The fact that you opened can reduce the perception you have a hand that smashed this board.
I guess I feel like calling, problematic as it is, is the least bad option

If I'm reading this right it's a 4-blind game, 1/3/6/20 and not only $20 for the bomb pots, right? Just trying to figure out if you opened to 3x or 10x.

Anyway I'm not really loving the situation, and agree with manofmeans that a jam doesn't seem particularly credible and makes our hand look like what it is. I would expect to get called fairly light. On the other hand I would expect the BB to be betting here with a lot of draws that would have to fold facing a jam. So the question is whether to raise and risk getting snapped off by a lot of stuff like Tx, or flat to keep the dominated draws in and risk getting raised and/or losing the hand when the draws brick.

I'm probably flatting in game, but I don't really love any option. Raising, calling and folding all seem less than ideal.

A jam might be the best of all the bad options.

Either way I prefer a dessert oasis to a desert oasis.

Agree with others about the game structure. Sounds like it would be hard to exploit any perceived skill edge we may have. The description of the game as being action-oriented makes sense as a result. Short stacks are likely being punted off frequently. I imagine it's a high variance game.

Re, our reads - if we suspect that V1 has contemplated 3B'ing us repeatedly, but he didn't, I'd be leery when he does eventually 3B us. His stack depth and prior restraint would lead me to be concerned that his 3B range is going to be too strong. I'd also be leery about betting or stabbing at any pot if V3 checks to us.

PRE - You said the typical open is $50, but you opened to $60? It's probably fine, but is there a reason to think we'll get more folds for this size?

I'd suspect SB and BB have reasonably good / playable hands when they cold call. I'd be giving them middling PP's, some suited aces, suited Broadway combos, and maybe some unsuited Broadway combos like AJo or KQo. Maybe also some SC's.

Not sure if we should continue here, even getting a good price. Our specific hand probably isn't doing great against three combined ranges. I'd be concerned about being dominated by better Kx and Jx, and our flush draw being over-flushed by AXss.

I don't hate calling because of the price we're getting, and because we've got good relative position on the 3B'er. If he bets post-flop, we'll get to see what SB and BB do before we act. But I think we could also just fold and find a better spot.

FLOP - Seems like a standard check. But I think an argument could be made for donking small here.

Unlikely anyone has 33 or 96s. V1 shouldn't have 33 or 66, and probably doesn't have 99 pure when he 3B's from the LJ pre. As the initial pre-flop raiser, we could have 99/66, and we might occasionally have 33. We could also have 87s, 54s, 98s, T9s, A9s, AXss, etc.

I'm not expecting V1 to c-bet this flop all that often, and if he does, he might c-bet huge on such a wet board. If it checks through, we'll be guessing what to do on a lot of turns. If he bets big and we call, he's likely to think we have a draw and won't pay us off when we get there. If he bets small, it's dicey to x/r.

A small donk of $150-$200 pressures our opponents to figure out how to respond. We clean up some equity by getting one or more opponents to fold. We'd be building up the pot in case we hit our draw, and we can credibly rep a wider range of value hands on later streets when we don't.

TURN - Based on your description of BB, he could have some SDV or a draw when he stabs for 40% pot. But I wouldn't necessarily rule out 2P+ when it's multi-way. He might use a smaller size than he would if this were heads up.

My gut reaction is it's okay to call here. LJ and SB probably don't have anything that will want to continue. If we were deeper, I might consider a raise.

I suspect you might consider jamming here, at your remaining stack depth. I wouldn't do it, and it illustrates why I think a flop donk is worth considering.

We have a hand that flopped a good bit of equity, and we picked up some more outs on the turn, but we'd be repping super-thin for value if we jam here, and bluffing into a potentially strong hand, with only one card to come. We can't even be sure how many clean outs we have.

If we jam, V isn't likely to fold 2P+ or any 1P + draw, and he could have a lot of those hands - 87s, TT, 99, 66, 33, T9, A3ss, ATss, QTss.

Don't jam. Just call. Try to realize our equity.

I opened 3x first to act.

And to the people saying they don't like this game structure. I'll point out - people are calling 300$ 3-bets pre with KTo OOP and stacking off on any stiff K-high runout.

PF is just a fold to the 3b. getting the price isn't even that good. your hand has a lot of RIO, there's very little money behind, etc.

Turn I think calling is the least bad but don't like any of the options.

Yes, it's a high variance game.

Poker is supposedly a skill game. It's hard to exploit any skill edge we may have when the max BI is 50 straddles. Harder still if there are multiple 15 straddle stacks on the table. They're basically just gambling.

I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if KTo is a jam for 15BB's in a tournament. At less than 2 SPR, I'd think it has to be a jam on any K-high flop.

I suspect the reason $50 is the standard open is because the effective stacks are fairly short. When we open to a bigger size, first to act, and get 3B, even for a small size, we should probably fold KJs, even when there have been two calls.

Our opponents are likely to have better KX / JX combos, and better flush draws. If we don't smash the flop, it'll be hard for us to realize our equity.

I don't understand the format of this game, so I'll not comment on the play of the hand.

What gives me pause is the same as when Banana was invited to a HU game. Why the invitation? Is Banana such great company and story teller that people love to have him around? Or is he seen as an easy mark?

I absolutely would not go to a home game where I don't know the players (poker room acquaintances are not friends) and the format is canine fecal matter.

I thought this was a casino game, not a home game.

I have no doubt that the game is good, but the reason fish do better (or at least less badly) in short-stacked games is because calling preflop with two high cards and stacking off with any piece becomes a much more viable strategy at sub 50bb versus, say, 200bb. High cards go up in value in short-stack scenarios (versus suited and connected cards, which go up in value in deep-stack scenarios) and the SPRs will be lower, so players will be committed with one pair a lot.

You can't really bluff, so you need the best hand to win, and you can't extract as much value when you do make the best hand. That's why the edge is low.

Big game + loose opponents + fewer opportunities to eke out value = a high-variance spot that doesn't appeal to everyone.

I sometimes play in a similar sort of game to this one, and it's extremely high value with large edges (granted the variance is also high).

You just have to play reasonable ranges and you can print vs the players calling big preflop raises with junk like Q8o and 54o.

It's not exactly high level poker, but it's fun from a gambling perspective. Whereas in a "normal" deepstack game you might only get all your chips in the middle once or twice a session, in this type of game you might end up all in 15 or 20 times a night.

This type of game can be extremely boring when you're card dead though.

Playing with large straddles against 1/3 players is going to be extremely profitable if you are studied at shorter stack depths - noting there will be a higher variance. Lot of theoretical mistakes will be made case in point this hand where we have 2 players that cold call a 3b. An adjustment I would recommend in this format is reducing your open size, and reduce middling-low PP VPIP.

All previous evidence is that you play way too loose, and bluff way too much, to be short stacking a 10/20 game. GTFO.

Have heard a at least 5-10 different stories, on this site, of people playing "action" games they thought were good but everyone just lost to the rake/variance over time. To be as clear as possible, I don't think this is a normal poker game, and if you run well and win piles that means nothing ... dito losing almost 2k to a random trash hand in this pot.

Kind of confused about the dealers taking the money from stacks in a bomb pot ... wtf happens if you stand up?

As to the hand, fold to the 3bet and half the table calling. (see the first point, KQo is almost certainly better than KJs here).

Nut street poker strat. might be to lead the flop big, solver probably doesn't hate leading flop small. Check is what almost everyone does, and isn't bad.

On the turn, eh, call I guess ... if I had infinite bankroll then raise big is maybe more appealing. Folding is still reasonable, but I doubt you've called your way here to even consider fold now (even though you only have 4 outs to the nuts and can lose to A8o).

50BB max BI games like this you are going to be eviscerated very quickly with "creative" loose preflop plays LOL

*Rooting for banana to lock in and crush it tho

Result: We call Turn. IP folds. SB calls. River 8♥ and SB lead shoves for 450 and we both fold.

Seems pretty clear how you know you have exactly 1625 back 😃.

Jam is fine but I think call is better given your reads that no one folds in this game for heaps.

Interesting how it played out, given this read in the OP: "V2 - Standard loose passive pre face up post. Asian. Calling a lot and giving up post. SB."

He's loose passive, and plays face up but calls a lot or just gives up post. Yet he didn't donk or x-jam turn, and didn't fold to the $275 bet. He over-called, leaving only $450 behind. By my math, he started the hand with $890, and has put in more than half his stack. A more competent player would probably view that spot as a fold or jam decision.

If we assume he'd lead turn with value when the flop checks through, or he'd go for a check-jam, then he was either chasing a draw that got there, or he was making a Hail Mary bluff into two opponents on the river, for a small fraction of the the pot size, around 30%. Since he's loose passive and gives up post, it seems unlikely that he was bluffing.

But what draws does he have when we have the Js in our hand? Whatever draw it may have been, it wasn't very high equity.

I believe this helps illustrate the challenge of playing too many hands / too passively in a structure like this one, or maybe vs opponents like these.

We'd probably be better off folding or just limp-calling pre, to avoid bloating the pot or playing a marginal holding multi-way in MP. We might be able to clean up some equity by donking flop. As a last ditch effort to win, we might have been able to take it down if we jammed turn. Alternatively, we could give up and fold when BB bets.

Instead, we did the same thing our last two opponents were likely doing. We played loose-passive, hoping to hit so we can get paid.

Yet notice that V didn't get paid when it looks like he's hit. It makes me think most of the big pots in this game are won on the flop or turn, and the winners in the game aren't showing down very many hands, but when they do show, they show down hands that were strong pre and had a lot of equity when all the money went in.

If you're going to play in a high variance game like this one, I think it's better to steer into the variance and make it work for you by pushing your equity to the max. Play tighter pre, and more aggressively post.

Next time you play this game, fold KJs pre, and VPIP KQs. Donk this flop for around 40%-50% pot. Then over-bet / jam this turn.

KJs is better than KQo here all the time

I do think KJs is probably a fold pre, facing the 3-bet. In this sort of loose, shallow game I try to play hands that will dominate more hands than they're dominated by. So the wilder the game gets and the looser the other players are, the better KJs starts looking, but facing a presumably nutted 3-bet range KJs isn't doing great.

Note I said KQs, not KQo.

That said, as the stack depth gets shorter relative to the blinds, the less being suited matters, and the more important high card value becomes. If you think KJs is better than KQo in this game, you shouldn't be playing in it.

You're right, I'm wrong. It resembles a game we played in home games back when east coast poker was either in a home or AC.