KJss at desert oasis

What's interesting is that our room, which is 99% just 1/3 NL most of the time, has been offering this exact same 1/3/straddle6/blindraise20 (with $20 bomb pot every round) game for the last year or so (and a lot of days, although not all, a single table that lasts for a few hours before busting can exist). The BI limits are a lol $200 to $1000.

I was actually going to post a query as to what people though of this game / strat, but in the end I've just decided I'm comfortable enough playing in my 1/3 NL game (which I do for mainly for fun, plus knowing that my swings in terms of $ will be extremely low key). I know for a fact that it of course makes no sense to play this game over my 1/3 NL game if I'm BIing in for the same $200 (as it would cost me $30 + $20 per orbit to attempt to play for $200 stacks instead of $4, plus I avoid the low SPR very multiway bomb pots which my preflop strategy is build on avoiding). It's possible playing at $1000 stacks might make more sense, but not everyone buys in for that, plus I'm just not really in the mental mood to experience the crazy huge $$$$ swings that game can produce session-to-session.

Gclueless1/3/6/20NLgamenoobG

I still think you'd crush this game even with the Bomb pots.

That said, given the chronic issue of casino profitability/viable business model in live poker, this could well be the future for most low-stakes games.

I would imagine a 2x or at most 2.5x open would be much better in a shallow game like this. There's also a big difference between 6 and 20, so for everyone but the fourth blind even a 2x open should still be big enough for them to not just shrug call with everything. It'll leave you with some more options post-flop.

I'd think 3x is completely unnecessary here. Thoughts, anyone?

That's a lot of imagination when SB and BB both cold called a 3bet to 8.25 4th-blinds.

Are the casinos having a hard time making a profit? Since when?

How long was I asleep?

The guy who runs our local home game went out of his way, more than once, to make it clear to me that the DBPLOBP's in his game are extremely optional. His text message to me after the last time I played that game said something like, "you crush at NLHE and get wrecked in the bomb pots."

This game structure reminds me of the many "maniac is blind-jamming pre" threads that get posted here, in which I seem to always get flamed for saying I don't mind over-folding some +EV hands in the name of stack and bankroll preservation.

It also reminds me of how that same home game used to play, when I first discovered it about a year ago. It'd start out as 1/2 with a $500 max BI, but within an hour or two it'd be 1/2/5/10/20/40 with no cap. There'd be 3-4 college kids playing $400-$500 stacks, a few middle-aged degen rec-fish trying to adjust with $500-$800 stacks, and a few crushers sitting on $2k-$3k.

I think too many people fail to adjust to the additional blinds. They think 1/3 + 6 is still 1/3. It isn't. And 1/3/6/20 with even a $1k cap is very likely to be a high-variance game, for what should be obvious reasons that many players will overlook in the name of getting into an "action" game.

This hand and others OP has posted from this game suggest he's not making the appropriate adjustments to the game structure.

Forever? Have been told for a long time that poker is basically breakeven for the casino, which means it's a massive loss compared to slot machines.

Also I'm old and time is weird now ... but IIRC in the last 24-36 months every "low rake" casino near me has gone from 6+1 to 7+2 rake, or worse. And with 7+2 there are now a lot of promos. that change the game at 1-2.

More than ever it does feel like the writing is on the wall.

To be fair, if I could get to Philly or Austin easily I might feel very differently.

I honestly had no idea. Once again, I'm forced to realize I may be spoiled as a Philly local.

I'd be suspicious of any card room within a casino claiming to be unprofitable unless and until I was assured they did some analysis to account for how many degens cross-pollinate. I know many poker players who will dump a good chunk of their poker profits (and increase their losses) playing blackjack, baccarat, craps, roulette, etc.

The poker room at Parx has at least one, if not two sports-betting kiosks. I can't say I've paid much attention to their usage, because I'm OCD and laser-focused on NLHE, but I'd think there must be some usage if the machines are left there.

I dunno. I find it hard to believe a poker room could lose money when they're taking $150 or more off every table every hour, and the dealers work for tips, and the house literally has zero risk of a player running hot, like they do in the pits. It seems like the most failure-proof business model possible.

I don't know. This is only one hand. Things can happen in one hand. But generally speaking, in a game where everyone is sticky post-flop anyway, I'd prefer to commit a bit less pre-flop and leave myself more room to manoeuvre. But maybe I'm wrong. Even theoretically I'm not sure what the right way to approach this would be.

The only real shallow stack poker that I've studied is MTT which does prefer small open sizes. However, this relies on a lot of fold equity and zero rake and hates getting stacked at all costs -- all of which are not present in this game.

Small open sizes does mean a bigger SPR postflop which should mean a bigger edge for skilled players. However, if every hand is going 5 ways to the flop and everybody started shallow to begin with and rake is really high, then the best approach is probably tighten way TF up and open bigger than 3x.

8+1 here.

Even if no flop they drop $1.

We're still holding at $9 max rake +$1 BBJ drop + $1 high hand promo drop + typically a $1+ tip (noting the BBJ / high hand drops I believe have a 10% management fee associated with them so they aren't even 100% redistributed back to the player pool).

Super surprised we haven't gone to $10 max rake yet (we've been at $9 since immediately coming back from CoronAIDs) but it will no doubt be in the near future.

And we have one of the more enviable rakes in the country when compared to back east.

Ggoodlucktousall,imoG

part of it is internal accounting. At Caesar's LV properties, the bar charges the poker room $9 / beer, more for mixed drinks. I wouldn't be surprised if alcoholic beverages are no longer comped at some point.

Harrahs / Caesars was losing money and filed bankruptcy in 2015. In 2020, ElDorado purchased Caesars and said they needed to find $500M in cost savings to make the deal a success - and then COVID happened, making it a terrible deal. Caesars newest owners are going to be looking for cost savings as well. ElDorado already used up their deferred maintenance store of cash. Many of the properties look like they need a refresh. Last year I was at the Flamingo and the hotel had no hot water for 2 days for which Caesars refunded only one day of the resort fee.

At Parx Philly, alcoholic beverages are not comped, at least not in the Poker room. Only waters / sodas / juices are free. I think alcohol may be comped in the pits. Curiously, I've noticed sodas are smaller out there than in the poker room.

I forget the exact amount, but I think I've been told the hourly comp rate in the poker room is around $0.90. I'd swear it's lower than that, closer to $0.80. Either way, a cheeseburger there is like $18 plus tax. I have to play three 6-hour-plus sessions to cover almost but not all of the cost of a sandwich.

The dealers work for tips. The servers work for tips. The unintelligible and decrepit mooks who walk around cleaning up seem to expect tips. No idea what the people who don't work for tips make, but I don't think I've ever seen more than 8 in the room on a busy Friday or Saturday night, and the room is pretty big, usually with 40-50 tables going.

There's literally no security posted in the poker room. I've been there when trouble broke out, and it takes a couple minutes for the tough guys to show up. I've been tempted to point it out to guys who run their mouths at the table.

The chips look they were made in the 00's, and haven't been cleaned since they were put in service. No exaggeration, they still have "Smarty Jones" commemorative chips in use, from when he almost won the triple crown. That was 2004. I can't tell you how many chips I've seen with chunks missing. They look gnawed on. They're sticky.

The felt on the table is faded and dirty. The game placards are bent and scuffed. Half the little wheeled tables for food feel like they'll collapse if you set anything heavier than a used booger rag on them. At least once a month, I'll sit at a table and find that the seat won't go down unless I bounce on it, and I weigh almost 220lbs.

The shuffle machines are all old, and constantly on the fritz, needing to be changed out. Their Bravos don't always work right.

They run a weekly $340 buy-in tournament. Only $295 goes to the prize pool. They take $15 out for dealers, and $30 for the house. That's a 10% commish + a 5% forced tip.

The rake at 1/3 is 10% of the pot up to a max of $5. At 30 hands / hour, that's $150 per hour coming off the table, just for the house, not including promo drop or dealer tips. And on weekend evenings, they'll have 20-30 tables of 1/3 going, plus 2/5, 10/10, 2/2 and 5/5 PLO, as well as some bigger games.

The casino has to be taking at least $200k / day out of that room when it's busy, and at least $100k / day when it's slow. I doubt their payroll costs exceed $25k / day on average. Add on 20% for benefits and whatever, it's still only $30k / day.

It's hard to imagine they're somehow losing money, when 90% of the staff works for tips, the facilities are under-maintained, and the amenities are non-existent. Where's all the money going?

Other rooms should take notice, if they're struggling so much they need to increase rake. Poker players would rather sit on broken chairs and play with dirty chips at dirty tables, and don't mind paying for booze and over-priced food, so long as the games are beatable, which means the rake has to be beatable.

As for Hotel-Casinos in LV struggling, cry me a river. They all tried to one-up each other with bigger and more lavish properties with more comps and amenities, in order to attract whales. But they made the experience of being there so distasteful for ordinary people that everyone thinks of it as a "two day city".

Last time I was in Vegas, I tried to take a walk outside, along the street. I just wanted to get some exercise, fresh air, and sunlight. I literally couldn't figure out how to get to the street. Every exit shunted me into the entrance to some other property or shopping area. I ended up taking a couple laps around the casino floor.

Have you ever just walked around a casino, looking at people? They're disgusting.

The whole city is depressingly and cynically face-up. They have slot machines in the goddam airport, in case you try to escape while still holding some of your own money.