CoinPoker debate

It's been their modus operandi
They've decided to redefine "Rakeback" to anything and everything
https://youtube.com/shorts/FgRB-KI8oOQis=KfBIIQO9UyxpMgDQ
And that's when they sent Carrell out to deal with the plebs
And people wonder why I got annoyed Because when you do this and the only time you ever correct your behaviour is when you are forced to to capitulate well then you can't be trusted it's as simple as that - the Mindset is "we'll try and get one over on you continually" (and that's all in the X reports it's how these new owners do business)
So if and when for example they ever get the RNG certified do we trust them Because it's still in their hands the day after See the issue . that they are 100% to blame for, they've poisoned their own well

This thread paused July 4-9 then Transparency bumps it again with a rehashed list of the same things discussed already, to get attention, a rogue marketing tactic on his part. Then he posts his talking points about the RNG in the other thread that’s at the top of the subforum lately, to get attention again in a new thread where the RNG is unrelated to it and off topic (then mods correctly moved it here, it is the above post).

Then he goes back to post there again with a lie, claiming a player didn’t get a mission, with an old screenshot from Coin’s Discord. But that player later posted he did get a Mission, worth 25% rb, the minor delay (he gets one less than a day later) was because it was a brand new player and Missions are personalized so require some minimal timeframe for that to be done.

Talk about tactics

Top 25 volume players 200nl with an avg lossrate of -7.43
And thats over 4 million hands
But then jspill shows a guy winning over 90k hands while claiming 4mil is a small sample
After being told thats nonsense it was all quiet on the western front
Especially about hidden reward systems

The tactic is easy:
step 1: copy paste ggpoker
step2: never admit it

I despair with you Jspill - I don't know if it's maybe what you're smoking out there in the Far East or whatever but you maintain your a smart guy university grad etc

"This thread paused July 4-9 then Transparency bumps it again with a rehashed list of the same things discussed already, to get attention, a rogue marketing tactic on his part"

Now I can post on this thread as and when I wish but then you say

"Then he posts his talking points about the RNG in the other thread that's at the top of the subforum lately, to get attention again in a new thread where the RNG is unrelated to it and off topic (then mods correctly moved it here, it is the above post). "

Now I haven't posted on this thread in a week - Mike had posted last about the password issue and there's only one post since then which was moved here by Mike I presume - so how exactly did I "bump it" to get attention using a "rogue marketing tactic" - I never posted on the thread I posted elsewhere and it was moved here by a mod so how was I bumping anything

But in the same breath you then mention the mods moving the post here - so you just negate your whole argument within the same post

And the other thread entitled "nobody's winning .." In my view uncertified rng/trust issues might be pertinent to that discussion

Anyway we're back to the same old same old - deflect - there are only one bunch of people currently employing rogue marketing tactics - that's CoinPoker and their shills/enablers

I'm not marketing to anybody really - I'm just pointing out what's out there , highlighting it if you will and directing people to Coinpokers official threads and discord

But you really are a dummy Jspill that's obvious everytime you type and your an utter waste of my time

"

And the missions That's Coinpokers email
" The My Mission feature is awarded on a personalized basis, so it is not currently available to every player."

That's pretty clear not every player gets them

That's what CoinPoker wrote

" As new campaigns are launched, eligible players will automatically receive access to Missions, and you may also receive notifications within the client when they become available."

What exactly am I missing here

Post 248 in this thread was the bump, and post 249 about RNG is the one you posted in the rake thread that got moved here, two separate posts.

And as for "Rehashed list of things already discussed"

This is what you don't seem to get Jspill
When I highlight things and they aren't addressed properly (or at all) you don't get to bury them because you gave some half baked nonsensical answer

I understand that how it works a lot of the time , i understand that's how you and CoinPoker would like it to work but it's not happening not with me

So the fact I have to continually bringing up the same things isn't down to me it's down to you/coin

And that became obvious with your comments on the PokerNews video saying that people had "moved on" - nobody's moved on jspill nothing brought up in that video has been addressed by Coin it's as valid now as it was the day it came out - you even intimating that PokerNews now might have some different view on Coin just because pads and bobby were on it unrelated - I can assure you that you are 100% incorrect on that - but that's for another day WSOP is the news cycle at the moment

I have no idea what your talking about -

Mike password last week
The post that got moved here by a mod
Then your post accusation of bumping (which I'd do if I liked but this is just to show your stupidity)

Post #248 is this one that lists 'facts that are all over X @pokerbots1' (your account).

Made on July 9, the thread had died down on July 4 with Mike's last post.

What's that got to do with bumping this thread That was posted in the "no one's winning" thread
And it's not showing on this one
Here's the screenshot of it in the OTHER thread

It is showing here now for me, I didn't see that one get posted in the rake thread. Ok that's sort of even worse, to post that huge one summarizing your talking points from your containment thread, for attention in another thread.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/di...

So now your whole post has been debunked as utter shite you're going to pivot to "you shouldn't post outside your containment thread" - who are you to tell me where to post CoinPokers own official thread addresses serious player concerns with misrepresentations

Those were all pertinent points for that discussion and they are still in it (and should stay)

You're just full of **** Jspill , you haven't brought one piece of useful information to any of this today , nor do you ever . And it's not even second rate garbage it's at some level below that I can't even find anything to describe it/you

They're not showing in that thread for me, if mods moved it then it's not pertinent.

How is a proof of reserves being taken as a snapshot then being taken down, in any way related to rake, and other sites never even did a PoR snapshot at any point, let alone do a temporary one.

The OP of that other thread also said it's a small sample so I'm quoting his own words there, it was 24 players and the amount of hands those particular players played combined isn't the only metric here. They played 93k - 277k hands each.

A player in that thread posted 396k hands he played at 200nl and 100nl, beating the games for 4.75bb/100 in post #97. Another player posted that 8.2bb/100 winrate screenshot above.

His title was 'no one is winning' it is a small sample to make that claim, as shown by others in the thread not just me, and himself -he did to his credit go on to post the full datamined batch which is 405 players, and 71 of those were winning.

As OP also says, potentially the 24 are not table selecting. We don't know their playing habits, or the date range either, you are saying 'top volume' but isn't it just the top volume over a date range we're unaware of. I checked the datamining site to try to find out but it just says 'a batch of hands from the past'.

There are also people replying to this topic on X saying some of figures are inaccurate as they know the players, and on Reddit saying they did beat 200nl but then moved up, there's a winning mid stakes reg who made a good point on Reddit about the 'bias' in drawing a 'no one can win' conclusion given that.

People were asking me to stop posting in that thread so I respectfully did, but it was reasonable imo to question a 'no one is winning' claim.

So now your whole post has been debunked as utter shite you're going to pivot to "you shouldn't post outside your containment thread" - who are you to tell me where to post CoinPokers own official thread addresses serious player concerns with misrepresentations

Those were all pertinent points for that discussion and they are still in it (and should stay)

You're just full of **** Jspill , you haven't brought one piece of useful information to any of this today , nor do you ever . And it's not even second rate garbage it's at some level below that I can't even find anything to describe it/you

by jspill m

by Transparency m

Those were all pertinent points for that discussion and they are still in it (and should stay)

They're not showing in that thread for me, if mods moved it then it's not pertinent.

How is a proof of reserves being taken as a snapshot then being taken down, in any way related to rake, and other sites never even did a PoR snapshot at any point, let alone do a temporary one.

Because your shady bastards in absolutely EVERYTHING you SAY and DO - the rake , the increase , the convoluted opaque unverifiable rewards structure all part of the one big deceptive cauldron of **** that is CoinPoker - and it all needs to be talked about as a whole . And it will be , it won't be let become yesterdays news

You're free to talk about it and have for 4.5 months on a daily basis, all as the site continues to grow and improve. At the end of the day it works, and it's providing an optional service for players if they want to play there, if players don't want to, there are alternatives, which also have their own issues, all poker sites do.

Interestingly a player did decide to try an alternative site in another thread with lower rake but found that it was reg heavy with 'no fish compared to Coin' - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/292/o...

Because Coin invests the rake into acquiring new recreationals - this is another point that was made on X that pokerbots1 had no response to.

I was pointing out your own deceptive way of doing so, you lied that a player had no Mission, with a cherry picked screenshot. If you weren't being deceptive, you would now quote your post, and reply with something like this and an update, stating he actually does have a Mission worth 25%, more than the 15% flat. Will you do that?

That's your post ..

And your words are that the replacement for the 15% are missions

And then today you accuse me of lying because I posted something about a player who didn't get a mission
But Coinpokers email to a player states that missions aren't guaranteed - " Missions are assigned based on various campaign criteria" - There's a big difference in that from the GUARANTEED 15% , this is some totally determined by CoinPoker "as and when" reward and it's a complete misrepresentation to state to players as a whole that the 15% has been replaced with something "of a higher value"
And yet you just throw "liar" at me . like WTF

And when you stopped posting I actually thought someone with a bit of sense had told you to shut your mouth - because all you've done is just dig deeper holes for you / coin - the fact you can't see that . here I don't know

The PROOF OF RESERVES

For the LAST time

No one else has one or has done one

CoinPoker did one to build TRUST - nobody forced you to do one , but you plastered it over your website and had Pads out front and centre promoting it and stating it would always be there

That bought you trust - you didn't do it as some "freebie" it was to give the platform credibility . And a one off snapshot since removed what exactly did that prove (Even worse Mario saying Coin had 3x the customer funds . like pull the other one lads)

And when it mysteriously disappeared- and no one had a reasonable explanation on it - indeed Leonard when questioned by me about it on the Omar show was all over the place , words to the effect of "what's that , I'm not sure what you mean " etc AFTER he had put it in his own promo stuff for Coin . his "I wills"

But again this is Pads who had no knowledge 2 years into a working relationship with Coin of who Miranda or Grunwerg were When on the same podcast Carrell was saying how he dealt all the time with "Sam and Mario"
Maybe Pads is the mushroom man Kept in the dark and fed full of **** Nah I doubt that

You were given a reasonable explanation in the official Coin thread, post #2451, by the official account as soon as you asked.

'It had a live widget on it showing all the crypto holdings - having that on the site permanently has some potential privacy and security issues, that's the reason it was taken offline, combined with the low views of the report.'

You didn't consider that reasonable but it really is, lots of PoR reports are periodic snapshots, all across the crypto industry where they're more of a thing than in poker. If it was still up you would probably be saying it's a security risk take it down as it's already been up for a year now. You seem to try anything you can to undermine this site for some reason.

It was up for so long that no one was talking about or looking at it anymore, it wasn't a discussion topic - because players tend to only keep the amount they need to play with on a site anyway, 20 buy-ins or whatever, and other sites don't have PoR either.

It's not like the crypto industry where there's a reason to keep a huge amount of funds on a platform, to stake and earn yield for example. So there's simply less reason for a poker site to have one. I don't see the issue in doing it temporarily back in 2024 when the site was quite small, to attempt to bring more awareness to Coin, which has worked.

Good Boy

If I search the official Coin thread for 'reserves' there are 13 results including the first announcement of it on July 27, 2024. All of the other results are you, there is no discussion of it being important or interesting from players.

You were the first and only person to point out the widget is no longer on the site, then the other results are CoinPoker replying to you, as you bring it up repeatedly even after being given a reply. Then there are repeated posts in this containment thread that many players requested you have, to keep your bad faith posts out of the official thread.

Jumping in this thread. Posted in the other thread w/ my results lifetime & since the rake changes (see post #97)

I actually play in these games and know a handful of these players personally, and have previously bought hands from the same HH site used to collect results, etc etc.

The mined hands aren't particularly accurate. I remember looking at what my results were shown as and there was an error of about 6bb/100 in what was mined and what my actual results were. HOWEVER, I think the average player is losing quite a lot. I haven't played much 200 recently, but do have about 150k lifetime hands at 200 (before the rake changes). Another 300k hands at 100nl, with 100k+ since the rake changes.

Here's my perspective on some of the things being discussed in the thread.

1. Are the games beatable
Yes, I think they're beatable. I think 200 is a rough stake on coin, however. With less action at higher stakes compared to GG, you get several players who play 500 and 1k who fill out tables at 200, and there are significantly less fish at 200 than 100 and I see much more 5-6 handed reg battling going on, which is why I've stayed playing 100 over the past few months as opposed to moving up, even when I'm confident I'm better than a majority of the 200 regs. I think 100 is definitely beatable, with how the games have run lately, but while I used to reg battle frequently prior to the rake changes, I have practiced strict game selection since, and think it's pretty necessary if you want to maintain a positive winrate.

Also, the OP in the other thread includes some things I look at and roll my eyes. Including one of the players as a reg is lol (good fish, but still a fish), and I know for a fact that one of the players that has a big losing winrate in the OP's image has won a lot over the course of the year and went on a 100bi upswing after the rake changes.

2. Should the RNG be questioned?
Yes, but also no. Always question it on any site IMO. Do I think that anything fishy is occurring on Coin? No. Is it, however, unfortunate that they're RNG isn't certified. For a company that once prized itself on transparency, it's quite the step back.

3. Do I think the rake is too high?
Definitely. When they announced the rake changes, they said they were committed to having the lowest effective rake in the industry, but my effective rake, if we ignore what I was getting with the old CoinRaces, is about 20% higher than it was before. If we include the old CoinRaces, it's about 460% higher, although I knew getting between .5bb/100 and 1bb/100 in effective rake for 9 months was probably not going to last. Although, there is an argument to reward battling, and getting 90% rakeback in the old system meant I would play basically anyone in the pool 3handed for hours on end.

4. How is the new rakeback system?
Terrible and I hate it. Poker variance can already be brutal and I don't need more variance in rakeback. My biggest frustration in the rakeback system isn't necessarily the system itself, but the constant changing of it. When the new rake changes fully came into effect, when the Mega Splash Pots were around instead of missions, I was pleasantly surprised with the rakeback, after a month of anxiety concerning the new rake structure. I was averaging about 75% rakeback, which did put Coin at very competitive effective rake. Was there some push back against the splash pots? Sure, when you got a 500bb Mega Splash it was a high variance shove fest, but people were fairly content in general. But overnight, and without warning, they scrapped the Mega Splash Pots and implemented missions, which in their initial iteration, offered about a 1/3 cut to rakeback. I haven't played on Coin in July, but again they redid the rakeback structure, scrapping the 15% flat rakeback and increasing the missions. Who knows what the average rakeback is now, as it's now even harder to tell, as I'm sure there are people running above and below in how they've received missions. And next month? Who knows. If Coin were to come out and say "We're trying to give players an average rakeback of X% and figuring out the best way to do that," I believe players would receive that much more positively, even if we as a group pushed for higher rakeback--we should always push for higher rakeback/lower rake, no one else is going to do it. The way things stand, not knowing what rake I'm going to being next month, makes Coin an unattractive option for long term play imo, especially with it being a niche game type in 1bb ante.

5. Is Coin viable long term?
I don't know. I do know that games 1k+ have virtually disappeared from the site. I know WSOP is going on, but from the 1k players I've communicated with, I know there is a huge negative sentiment to the viability of the games. If the path up in stakes is unattractive on the site, why would I continue to try and grind on the site? Why not move somewhere where the path upward is more clear (I have moved sites and am no longer regularly playing on Coin). In fact, having talked to a couple of guys who play 50, I've thought that if I do play on Coin, moving DOWN in stakes might be the play. 50 is receiving great rakeback with the Mega Splash Pots, games are softer, swings are less $, and knowing the results of a couple guys at 50 who haven't proven to they can beat 100 yet, I think it would only be a 15-20% cut in my hourly I was getting at 100 (averaging 56/hr long term).

But if you "agree with OP" in the claim that a total of 4 million hands is a small sample why even combat it with a sample thats not even 10% of that?
Surely that would no significance and relevance at all considering even 4M is a small sample?

I understand your role in defending Coin but a volume based sample of 4M hands from 24 players averaging -7.43bb/100 triumph a selected 396k sample from 1 player of +4.75bb/100 any day of the week AINEC

As the OP of the other thread, I will say that he has some valid criticism of my post, as does lorenzo. The data I posted isn't entirely accurate, due to the nature of datamining, and it has always been the case that some of the biggest winners online aren't high volume players. With that said, while my thread title was click bait, obviously there are some people winning, it still doesn't negate the fact that the rake is too high, the rewards systems are opaque, at best, and this is intentional. I suggest the following to make the games better:

• Immediately reduce rake - Stars cap is $2.75, ACR is $3, and Ignition is $4. I don't mind paying a premium for better games. Cap the rake at $4
  
• Eliminate Leaderboards - Leaderboards and rake races are bad for the games and bad for recs. They encourage people to play too many times, burn of time banks, tank, and play a nitty style. Get rid of this completely.
  
• Incentivize starting tables - Lower the rake significantly for starting tables. 3 handed or less should be rake free. This actually encourages people to play HU/3 way to start more tables. It gives everyone a better experience. More tables = more money for the site.
  

If they want to keep doing Missions, Splash Pots, and otherwise gamify the rewards for recs, that's fine. Maybe you can set it up to where there are two levels of rewards: Straight rakeback or Missions. Missions are the default. Missions can provide more of a loot box experience, but potentially bigger rewards, while straight rake back is just a straight percentage.

There are probably flaws with these ideas, but I think they are a good start.

Oh I understand.
Mass volume guys dont pay the attention to each table or dont table select to get a really high wr.
But this is -7.43 over 4M which is telling. And data mining is never 100% but its not like the actual wr of them is -5 over 5M or something.

If you toy around with biggest volume players on datamined hh sites on the same stakes and games you'll find that on every site the top volume guys are actually still pre-rb winners, CoinPoker being the odd one out by quite substantial lossrates across the board. So there is definitely a point for rake being too high on CP.

CoinPoker is following a path that leads to being a less playable GG clone. Players were worried about this and Coin assured us they wont go that route. But we can see that this is happening nonetheless. And the 4M hands of big volume obviously doesnt tell the whole story but it does support the worries of players who want to win at poker and not only win at leaderboards promos etc.

Mike Haven

I don't know what's going on with this forum now but all posts on 3 different threads I'm watching are only appearing on the old forum - posts aren't showing on the new

On the new forum this thread is called "CoinPoker Discussion" on the old forum "CoinPoker Debate" - weird