***Official H&F LC Thread***

Melk,

It seems you're trying to draw the conclusion that dumber people vote for Trump, which I agree with to a degree. Just so everyone is on the same page, can you give a 1-10 estimate of the effect size and the level of certainty that you hold for that viewpoint.

Now can you do the same while swapping Kamala/Trump for White/Black. Or as a person who believes in "facts", perhaps I should say 13/52 and Whites?

No. You're going backwards. You keep trying to expand what I said, when I was very precise. I wrote that support for Kamala tends to increase with educational level. That means what I said it means, not what you tried to expand it into.

Also, I checked your reply carefully and couldn't find the average IQ of Kamala voters, the average IQ of Trump voters, or your analysis showing the difference to be statistically significant.

No. It's just that proving things like this is hard.

You never showed that less educated people are less intelligent. More importantly, you don't know who the voters are within these groups. What if STEM majors tended to vote Trump and gender studies majors tended to vote Harris? Similarly, what if military NCOs and small business owners tended to vote Trump and welfare recipients tended to vote Harris?

Your blanket statements don't even attempt to account for any of that. It's pretty clear you just think Trump voters are dumb, and your unfounded opinion is the basis of your argument.

I'm not trying to prove anything. You are. I just had to debunk your hypothesis, which I've done.

ive only been skimming lately. only somewhat related is that this thread caused me to wonder about what actually would make a useful metric of how well the system is working towards creating good opportunities for healthy lifestyles for the masses. i came up with the thought that looking into stats for what % of united states citizens leave behind something of value worth recording when they die.

according to my layman's search, the experts estimate* that about 70% of united states citizens dont leave anything resembling an estate when they die. are all those people that leave nothing just lazy or unlucky? i don't think so. i hope this improves for the next generation. i think this should be an economic talking point. its something average people can understand, and its plainly illustrative of where the spoils of our capitalism are going.

*there are no official stats on this.

Hi Rich,

The first part of your post is so nonsensical that it's not worth responding to. If you can't understand that support for Harris goes up with higher education levels means that support for Trump goes up with lower educational levels, you need serious help. More that I can provide, I'm afraid.

But let's get to the best part.

You've got that right. According to the Rich Muny system you haven't proven anything about anything. For example does California have a bigger problem with shoplifting than Texas? Who knows? You certainly can't say that. Do we have any studies which show a statistically significant difference after correcting for factors like population, number of stores, and socioeconomic status?

Is a plant based diet worse than one with animal products for 'optimal' health as you put it? Who knows? Do we have any studies that have compared the two groups, monitored for compliance, corrected for activity levels and found a statistically significant difference between the two groups in various health outcomes. And how were those outcomes weighed against each other? No? Well, you certainly can't claim that.

How about this one. Do liberals think conservatives are stupid? Do you have survey data from an unbiased, non-partisan source that shows liberals thinks conservative are more stupid than other liberals or just people in general? Oh, and is that difference statistically significant? No? Well, I guess you can't claim that either.

Hey, wait a minute! You are claiming all of those things! But Rich Muny is claiming all of those things knowing fully well that they aren't proven. Why would he do that? Does that mean Rich Muny is knowingly full of shiet? What other conclusion can we draw if he is going to advance all of these claims which don't meet his own rigorous standards?

Kamala voters are definitely smarter.

But here is the thing, 100 million people didn't vote. And they would tend to lean democratic. They definitely dumber than Trump voters.

So overall, Democrat and Republican supporters about the same intelligence.

We move on.

Wow. Gaetz. Patel. Hegseth. Vance.

That equals 100% chance 2020 election would have been overturned. Good thing Trump is about to die and not interested in 3 terms.

Mike Pence is an american hero.

meh, bring back supreme warrior overlords pls.

i think a lot of smart, well educated democrat voters are simply clinging to their faith in the system which has been pretty good to them. they missed the part where dems sold out to the war mongers and big pharma.

standing in line, believing the lies.

So you raise a couple interesting and salient points:

1) Registered D and registered R are about 35/25 of the population last I checked.
2) Voter turnout is correlated with intelligence (unknown why).

Again, what percentage of black people vote and what percentage actually vote? These are some of the stupidest people in society. I struggle to find another easily understood demographic qualification for being of low intelligence other than being black in America. Whether you want to debate the avg black is .66 or a touch over 1 SD below the norm, it is ****ing comically massive compared to other things that are incredibly difficult to study and we're essentially reading tea leaves for. While I may hold a low confidence assumption that Cumula voters would score higher on an IQ test than Trump voters, it is difficult to know or prove that, and I take that position in accordance with my certainty.

But we are damn near 100% sure that a random black person is SUBSTANTIALLY dumber than a random white person. (Not even to the degree that a Jew/Asian is smarter than a White.)

But then we have the Melkman "dunking" on Rich, which is hilarious because he engages in newspeak without even being cognitively aware he is doing so. Nor is he capable of acknowledging the above facts. Yet somehow wants to ridicule someone else for their self-delusional world.

Honestly ****ing wild. The mind of the self-deluded. How do you even comprehend these things? Do beings who lack self-awareness even grasp it? Do they realize they're essentially puppets incapable of independent thought? These are the questions I ask myself.

It is honestly kinda wild.

So let me posit a couple scenarios:

1) We build out Obamacare to cover everyone at a reasonable cost and have actualized universal healthcare.
2) We burn down Obongocare, institute massive tort reform alongside healthcare reform unifying and guaranteeing healthcare for the poors.

Which of these seems quicker and more likely?

Trump should have waited til January and then pardon the Qanon Shaman and then appointed him Fbi director.

Only that beats out this Patel nomination.

Oh man, great stuff. I love it.

Super wild they used to be childhood friends playing at the Motel 6 Patel's dad ran.

Your claim that IQ increases for every adult in college is quite unproven. The accepted evidence is that IQ is locked in during childhood. If you think a couple of studies prove otherwise, despite the premise not being accepted by any major medical group, then I guess you believe all those Nestle-funded nutrition studies too.

But, we can test it. Next time you talk to a gender studies grad, give her some complex instructions. When your Starbucks order comes out, check it to see how well she did in placing your order.

I summarized what the data says regarding education levels. You are determined to expand upon that, despite having no evidence for your claims.

California has a bigger shoplifting problem than Texas, as evidenced by actual elections hinging on the matter. I don't require the conditions you mention because I didn't expand my point beyond what is actually known.

I absolutely didn't say that. I simply said humans are omnivores and that is our optimal diet. Plant-based diets can be fine with proper planning. Without planning, it can become suboptimal very quickly, which is why so many quit veganism.

I didn't say every lib thinks every conservative is dumb. I said it's a talking point that's out there, especially on social media. Again, I don't require the data you suggest because I didn't expand beyond what is known.

2 seems quicker and more likely, but not very probable on short timelines. thing is that when we say "healthcare reform," we really mean "health insurance reform." obama talked a good pregame, about taking on the insurance companies. fast forward to now, it seems he lost, or he threw the game. can trump and his team win one for the people? time will tell.

Lets keep in mind Putin was the great reformer. He was wildly praised as someone who got out the corrupt people. And he 100% did that. Full stop. He then summarily replaced them with his own.

American healthcare is so incredibly ****ed. It needs ti burned to the ground. We are subsidizing the world. The "Health and Fitness""

PS you shitblibs would hate to find out what Yurop views fluoride on.

can't tell if Melk legitimately believes that truth starts and ends with peer reviewed academic research (asinine) or if he's trying to make a rhetorical point because I don't wanna read the whole debate. CitationNeeded.jpg meme.

As one of the the / people, I feel the urge to ask: Do you think people of your skin color have the raw horsepower (in terms of IQ) equivalent to jews or asians?

Health insurance might be part of it, but look at how much USA #1 consumes pharma like it’s candy. Instead of you know, eating less and moving a little everyone wants ozempic to lose weight. And look at how much usa#1 spends on Pharma, cost of those drugs compared to rest of world. And how much doctors and the non-profit hospital systems bring in.

Yeah, as a casual and not totally informed observer, my POV is that if Trump could justify a Patel like appointment to any area of his Gubmint it would be to send someone in to blow up or overhaul the entire health care/health insurance/pharma area

Obvs that’s basically impossible and obvs it wouldn’t happen for ‘follow the money’ reasons but it seems to me to be the area that is most out of whack

on average? **** no. Anyone who believes the contrary is statistically illiterate. And even the most staunch ideologues/statistical illiterates would quickly change their mind after spending almost 10 years in an Asian country surrounded by elite level Chinese students. I think even African American IQ with lots of white genes is around 87 vs white average around 98-102. Jews and Asians (not necessarily mainland Chinese, but let's not get into that) are higher still than that. It's like a different universe in a modern traditional Asian or Jewish American community and an African American community. Obviously within group variation allows for many melanin gifted individuals to be much higher IQ than some individual whites/asians/jews. My black dad had infinitely more intellectual horsepower and capacity for abstraction than my white mom.

I'm a bit surprised you would ask me this question. I used to post all the time about how a lot of leftist policies created a dysgenic environment for African Americans and either slowed down or reversed what had historically been a narrowing black/white IQ gap. But maybe you were not active at that time. Evolution didn't stop once we discovered it and entered the modern era; it has only been accelerating as time passes...

I'm getting well beyond your question, but ultimately progressives who want to improve the situation of the less fortunate are ignoring genes and heredity at their own peril... these are intergenerational multi-decade problems, not problems that can be fixed with redistributive bandaids.

Lol Mcdonald but still a great video. Dr. Mike is kinda the Rippetoe of our time. Homie put all of his points into intelligence and had wisdom as his dump stat. A really smart self righteous idiot. I still think somebody blindly following Dr. Mike's advice on training/diet is going to be at a much higher level of fitness than somebody on their 5th year of the texas method eating 4k calories a day at 210lbs 22% bodyfat trying to squat 4 plates for 5 before they are considered an advanced trainee.

His dogmatism and lack of humility is his own undoing in his own fitness endeavours. I actually think his training is mostly spot on, just his diet approach is really bad. He's also just kinda weird and occasionally really mean to people for arbitrary reasons.

I haven’t read any studies on this but the two communities/ethnicities you outlined as having the highest IQs in Asian and Jewish are also the two that IME seem to have by far the largest cultural focus on the importance of education in their communities. In primary school, many of the Asian kids that my kids knew/were friends with were already getting academic coaching and had way way stricter rules around homework and educational standards than the rest of the classes. Most of the Jewish kids I know/know of go to Jewish schools so I don’t have the same knowledge of their habits but again, the community and family work ethic in the Jewish culture and the seriousness with which they value achievement is evident

I’d always assumed that is why they do better at school rather than because of inbuilt advantages/capabilities due to their ethnicity?

Mostly irrelevant how its transmitted （genes vs culture). Culture is just an evolutionary mechanism which influences what is defined as "fitness" in a reproductive context. If blacks raised in middle class white families have higher correlation with biological parents IQ than adoptive parents, then it's probably not an unreasonable inference to suggest the same would be true of Asians or Jews. But lets say we have two African Americans with the same IQ and one is raised in the middle class white family and the other is raised in a lower class black family; it's not a mystery which one will have more academic success for a given IQ score.

It's definitely a combination of both. But ignoring the genetic component because of some ideological marriage to blank slatism is just peak ignorance. Academic advantage or a culture of emphasizing academic success could be from something other than innate advantage in IQ. Personality traits like conscientiousness and neuroticism are also heritable, for instance.

That said, you may find this very white-pilling and feel good if the idea that some races may have higher IQs due to genetic factors than others bothers you (it clearly doesn't bother me and it may be true):

To clarify before any nazism accusations: Not saying blacks are innately lower IQ and are doomed to be as such forever, but rather environmental pressures were rapidly closing the black white IQ gap. Put African descended peoples into an environment with the same selective pressures as other ethnicities and that gap probably closes within a few generations.

That wasn't my claim. You never seem to get those right.

Anyway, Rich, if you can't see how clownish this is, you're beyond help.

You seem to think you can do this:

Melk: Dumber voters tend to vote Trump
Rich Muny: I don't care what evidence is out there unless you have IQ numbers for Harris voters and Trump voters it is unproven and cannot be true. We need to see a statistically significant difference in multiple studies and maybe I'll consider it.

And also do this

Melk: So on what evidence are you basing your claim that shoplifting is a bigger problem in TX than CA
Rich Muny: LOL I don't need stats or evidence or anything to prove that. It's obvious. You're dumb to even ask the question. We had an election, we don't need anything else
Melk: But where is the statistical significance
Rich Muny: Oh, election is good enough evidence. Obviously

And there is no contradiction whatsoever? Come on, man.

Man, emoken, you disappoint me. It's obviously a rhetorical point. Here are the cliffs.

Rich Muny is claiming that unless we have MULTIPLE studies showing a statistically significant difference in IQ between Harris voters and Trump voters, there is effectively zero evidence that Harris voters are smarter. Even that wouldn't be enough, because he says anyone who would do that study is obviously a biased lib.

Rich Muny also never holds any of this other claims to that standard. Needing multiple perfectly conducted studies showing statistical significance is only something that he needs when it's something that he doesn't want to believe.

That was what was in the text walls that you missed.

Sorry you're feeling so left out, NotThremp. Just had time to read the last LOL Muny post yesterday. You're certainly imaging a lot of positions that I don't actually hold. I'm not sure I disagree all that much with above. My confidence is probably a bit higher than yours.

Rich is bad at reading, but in the event you're not following the text walls close, I'm certainly not claiming it (i.e. dumber voters tend to vote Trump) is definitively proven. However, I do think that it is more likely true than not true.

The newspeak part is "lol", though. Presumably you've read the book you're alluding to. In it, using anything other than newspeak is discouraged. As I told you already, that's not my position. You are free to use the term illegal aliens and I certainly acknowledge there is nothing incorrect about saying it that way. I prefer "undocumented" (when referring to people who are indeed undocumented), as it is also accurate. I also have no interest in forcing you to use that term, newspeak-style. I suppose there are people out there who think that "undocumented" is the only acceptable term. Perhaps you are confusing me with them.

Gotcha, sorry for the confusion.

That said, Thremp makes a good point. To make the claim "Kamala Voters are smarter than trump voters" it'd be better to add the caveat ", holding race/ethnicity constant". The black white IQ gap is so massive and American non-immigrant black women are extremely ideologically married to the democratic party which could bring the average IQ of Kamala voters down very significantly.