***Official H&F LC Thread***

I disproved even that limited claim. Go back and reread.

The article didn't link to the poll raw data. For all we know, <3% of all respondents said they don't follow political news. We don't know, and it's not like NBC News doesn't have clear political biases.

"You all" doesn't men you singular.

[QUOTE=]Everyone knows dumber people tend to vote Trump. It's like the sky being blue. Deep down even Rich knows this. [/QUOTE]

I made no claims. I said you failed to prove your case. I also said that, even if it were true, it would be people voting their interests, not people being too dumb to see how wonderful Kamala is. You said you don't care why they voted how they voted, which makes your argument even weirder.

Speaking of being smart, the elitist attitude of Kamala voters harmed her with working class voters. So, feel free to keep it up.

True. They see some snooty intellectual types talking down to them and they resent it. There are also plenty of working class folks who aren't all that dumb who work hard for a living. They greatly resent that treatment as they already think people look down on them. Lots of luck getting their votes.

And, there are people like me. College graduates in STEM fields with lengthy, successful professional careers who get called uneducated on social media by purple-haired nonbinary college sophomores majoring in gender studies. We just roll our eyes and wonder what's going on with the Democrat Party.

Acting elitist -- especially as its wholly unearned -- may be good for the true believers who can all pat themselves on their backs for being so smart and superior, but talking down to voters isn't a way to win elections.

I'm not seen this. People say leftist ideas are dumb, like thinking men are women, but "you're dumb, lib" with no context? That's rare in my experience. I see "Trump loves the poorly educated" and other such insults posted to conservatives all the time.

Melk vs Muny summarized.

It's probably a combo of "I'm not dumb" plus "there is no way that I'm as dumb as those guys", which is sometimes false.

While that is not what I think, that is not incompatibly with my position.

Congratulations! You have finally gotten it correct.

LOL. You've really raised the bar on ridiculousness.

Rich Muny: You see,when liberals call conservatives dumb its a baseless personal attack. But when noble conservatives call liberals dumb it is based on a well-reasoned thought process after carefully considering their arguments.

Come on man. You're calling me dumb, I'm calling dumb. This is what happens in the process of internet shietposting everywhere.

I assume from the quotation marks you realize that is a quote from Orange Man himself.

If I had an IQ off vs Trump or Kamala voters, I am trying to think what the optimal bankroll Kelly bet would be??

I am not sure, but it certainly is much higher vs the average Trump voter.

Now this doesn't mean I think all Trump supporters are dumb. Obviously plenty of them will beat me, just saying give me the average Trump supporter all day.

Kamala ain't that smart, failed the bar her first time. But no facking way Trump can ever pass the bar, he is dumb as shiet. All in, IQ off vs The Donald.

Anyways I didn't vote Trump, I couldn't. Too facking dumb, dictator like, and unscrupulous. Elon and Bill Ackman would say that i was brain washed by the media. No man, i have seen most of the speeches (they are batshiet crazy). All the insiders in his past adminstration loling at him. WTF, its like i am watching a comedy film, this cant be real life.

I have zero qualms with you guys voting Trump, I understand. Kamala is a donk also, 8 million immigrant encounters while she was exploring the root causes of immigration. Yo Kamala, 1 billion people would move to USA if they could. Once they start flying to Ecuador to cross the crazy Darien Gap, its time to do something.

Anyways, rooting for MAGA now. Not too much but just enough so they don't blow this shiet up. It's okay to concede power back and forth, just don't give me Venezuela or Russia.

No you didn't. You don't know what "prove" means. You don't even know what "you" means. More on that below.

You keep claiming that these are Kamala talking points as if that's proof. First of all that's not proof. Moreover, Orange Man is the one constantly talking about the stock market and going on about crime being "at levels we've never seen before" or some similar nonsense, which isn't even true according to the data you posted yourself. Thee are TRUMP talking points!

This poll was conducted by a professional, multi-million dollar market research company. They don't really have any incentive to push "Kamala talking points" or whatever you want to call it. But you seem to have built up this conspiracy in your head that Kamala and her buddies made a poll and just took advantage of some unsuspecting Trump voters.

Yes, it's only questions on only four issues. But on those four things the less informed ones tended to vote Trump.

You can't even follow a facking link now? The raw data is linked in the article. 15% responded that they "don't follow political news closely". GJGE.

Obviously. But "you all" includes the person you are talking to (that would be me) AND other people. It does not mean just other people and not you personally. I truly cannot believe we're at the point where I need to explain basic English words to you.

Next time go with a "Sorry, I didn't mean to include you, I should have worded that more carefully". I know internet posting is serious business, but it's not that big a deal.

I said that you would never admit it, so I'm well aware that you made no such claims. And I know you never would (as I have said). As we've covered, and you finally seem to understand, whether they voted in their interests is irrelevant. I also never said they voted for Trump because they were dumber (You even seem to understand this now. Well done!).

So what we're left with is "you failed to prove your case". That's all you have left. Sure, you can always claim that. Let's see what what we've got

-A poll with some facts. People who didn't know those facts tended to vote Trump (yes I know you have problems with this, and I take issue with those problems).
-It sounds like even you agree that people who are less educated, tend to vote Trump
-People who are less educated tend to be less intelligent (I posted a link to a study from a peer-reviewed journal that shows this, but you don't seem convinced...something about liberal arts degrees)
-I recently posted some data showing that voters who said they didn't really follow the news tended to vote Trump.

What do we not have? Data to the contrary. I know you didn't claim have any. You'll be happy to know that I've looked a bit. I haven't found any either. Nothing from Fox News or Newsmax or OAN or whatever.

So, sure, I could find you more data like in the list above, and I'm sure you would just dismiss that as well. Doesn't matter what the evidence is. Your mind is clearly made up. But a reasonable person would have to admit that all of the above in the aggregate would make the proposition that "dumber/less intelligent/less informed voters tend to vote Trump" more likely to be true than not true. All the data (imperfect though it may be) is only pointing one way, but if there is one thing Rich Muny is sure of, it's that it can't be true.

I'm claiming the Greek statue with HEART for our side. Yugo and Soulman are going to be pleased AF when they find out.

I absolutely did. Your refusal to admit it isn't surprising.

They are Trump talking points of how things were while he was president, not of how things are during Biden's time in office. Wow, you can't even be serious with this one.

Haha. With PPA, we worked with plenty of polling companies. It's all about what questions are asked. I already showed how the questions aligned with Kamala's talking points.

I already showed you where some of the biases there lie. Too bad you lack critical thinking skills. That's why you believe everything you read.

15%? Haha. That's pretty trivial.

Dumb reply. "You all" means a group where a majority believes something. Kamala voters generally believe what I post. I saw it on social media constantly and heard it on MSNBC whenever I suffered through a bit of watching the propaganda network.

No, you didn't show Trump voters are less informed. Not at all. Nor did you show Kamala voters are smarter. You tried to tie some weakly correlated factoids together, but it doesn't prove anything.

Even if you were able to prove it, all it would show is that Democrats have run off the working class that used to be a main part of their coalition. That cost you all the so-called blue wall. If that's a bragging point for you, I hope you all (note: since this term confuses you, I don't mean you specifically) succeed in running off more working class people going forward.

The hypothesis that Kamala voters are smarter and/or more informed than Trump voters has not been proven. But, other group differences have been, like

https://www.statista.com/chart/33408/female-male-us-voters-exit-polls/

Statista Daily Data

Infographic: The Trump-Harris Gender Gap

I think I’m right in saying that left leaning parties across most/all of the western world are skewing increasingly female and right leaning skewing increasingly male.

Rather than arguing about intelligence, Melk could have simply made claims about education level as it pertained to Trump and Harris support (he referenced it, but only to try to correlate that to intelligence, which was odd). BUT....college educated men voted for Kamala and Trump roughly equally. Woman (college educated and non-college educated) favored Harris, again showing the stronger gender divide.

Wait till you hear that I think men are more likely to commit violent crime than women. Pretty sure its straight to Nuremberg for me. Which ironically is not that far away from where some of my forebearers originated.

A p huge amount v either. Most 80y olds are senile as fk. Kamala is literally a woman who sexed her way to her position. She literally gave some head to get ahead. While its a funny trope, it is also amusing.

A better question would be, what kelly stakes would you bet vs a black person, white person and asian person. Maybe you get get one of those black asian people from the Islands of the Blacks, but it doesn't matter under a normal dist.

Now if you wanna argue the distribution is not normal... k.

This is pretty obv true.

It is also true that Yurop knows virtually nothing about politics in America or what is commonly believed. Nordic countries are the bastion of modern right wing populism and it would behoove us all to pause for a moment and consider why they started this, why they are incredibly popular, and why many of their views are increasingly vilified by allegedly "smart" people.

Melk,

I'm not reading all that, but I think you'd agree that the average IQ or g or whatever you want to use as a proxy for intelligence of college graduates must have gone down (relatively speaking) over the last thirty years as college attendance has increased (this is, of course, assuming that levels of intelligence can actually be measured in ways that aren't racist or sexist or biased against other ways of knowing). I think you'd get more accurate results if you segmented for major or sex or other such metrics, but I'd guess that may prove undesirable?

Also, re: crime levels falling being an objective fact from a few hundred thousand words back:

https://oversight.house.gov/release/comer-demands-transparency-from-fbi-about-quietly-revised-crime-statistics

United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

Comer Demands Transparency from FBI About Quietly Revised Crime Statistics - United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

The thing you've repeatedly failed to grasp is that people (in general) don't trust your "facts" when they conflict with their lived experience, and the left's credibility is beyond abysmal; arguing from a position of intellectual superiority and arrogance may feel great, but as others have noted, beyond the fact that it may not even be true, it's terrible strategy even if it is true (which I think it probably is wrt average IQ of left vs right voters, albeit not in a way that's significant from a practical perspective). Even when the facts you use are (probably) objectively correct (e.g., rate of inflation decreasing), it's a metric most people (correctly) don't care about because it's not as relevant to their lives as an absolute increase in prices. You can't "well ackshually" your way to electoral dominance with a population that quite correctly understands that you have active disdain for them (well, not anymore).

I think both of us would agree that I'm "smarter" than you, which is inclusive of a singular test based on somewhat kinda bullshit things.

Now, when we pull back and look at this at its face value. It doesn't actually mean (assuming the assumption is true) I'm "smarter" than you. There are a ton of things that I'm sure you're good at that I look at like a true autist (which I am). Kids in zip up socks prob being the first thing on my mind.

Anyway, the application of the general to the specific is a logical fallacy that is indicative of someone who doesn't think. (As all logical fallacies are.) I don't clown on Rich because it is obviously trivial and I don't think he positions himself in a sort of superior intellect. Melk is easy low hanging fruit. He's smart, but not nearly as smart as he thinks.

Many of these ideas are relatively complex and I can't propound any specific ideology, other than we need to help poor people but not the detriment of the greater good (whatever that means). Maybe we can forge a path forward where people care about important **** instead of esoteric shibboleths. (Acknowledgement emoken)

I ran out of popcorn two days ago, but I still keep coming back.
It is like looking at a car accident. I just can't look away.
The problem is that I have to drive past this wreck every morning, it hasn't been cleared and I have to look again!

Yes. I do wonder where the finish line is

That's fine. And probably the optimal play. I can't fault you for that. However, some of this stuff is covered already in the things you didn't read. This will be relevant in the point you make about crime later.

I'm sure it has gone down. I would agree that all of those things are confounding factors when trying to study this this issue. First of all efforts have been made by the people who research these things to correct for these factors, and even the correlation persists. Are these attempts at correction perfect? Probably not. While the average intelligence of college grads has gone down, I seriously doubt that the positive correlation between education and intelligence no longer exists.

Moreover, I'm not sure why we need to limit this to raw intelligence. I'd suspect cultivated intelligence also correlates with education. Education is basically lifting for the brain. If we abandoned young baby Einstein to be a feral child in the woods who is literally raised by wolves, I doubt he becomes the GOAT physicist.

I'm not really even sure where you're trying to go with this. Do you think the two aren't positively correlated?

First of all, the question in the survey was not with regard to crime falling. It asked if crime was at "all time highs". That's essentially indisputable, regardless of what stats you use. I even showed this with the source the Rich Muny posted himself. So whether the responder thought crime had risen or fallen in the last several years is not really relevant to the question. And if they misunderstood the question, then that's kind of dumb.

This was covered in the text walls that you no doubt did not read. Again, I can't really fault you for that. I wouldn't read it if I weren't writing half of the posts. But it did happen.

Anyway, I'll address the rest anyway. But realize that despite the fact that Muny wanted to discuss it a lot (and I chose to respond to that) it wasn't actually what the survey asked.

https://oversight.house.gov/release/comer-demands-transparency-from-fbi-about-quietly-revised-crime-statistics

United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

Comer Demands Transparency from FBI About Quietly Revised Crime Statistics - United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability

The thing you've repeatedly failed to grasp is that people (in general) don't trust your "facts" when they conflict with their lived experience,

Nope. I absolutely understand that. Also as you may be aware, the reporting changed starting in approximately 2021 and some localities were still in the process of phasing that in during 2022 and 2023. I do agree that there is data that you could slice and dice to convince yourself that violent crime is up. I think that some of that data isn't convincing for reasons I explained in earlier text walls. However, the question wasn't "has crime gone down?"

True. But it's not like the right has a ton of credibility either. They're both terrible in that dept.

Again, this wasn't the question asked.

This was also probably covered in the stuff you didn't read. It depends on what you mean by "terrible strategy". Would it be a terrible strategy by the Harris campaign? Yes, and I'm sure I have said that at least 5 times. Would it be a terrible strategy if I was actually trying to persuade someone of anything. Also yes. On the other hand, as I already said, when posting on a dying subforum of a dying poker forum, with someone with like Muny, strategic considerations are not relevant. What I'm posting doesn't matter at all. I'm certainly not trying to persuade Rich Muny. As I told you, I always knew he was not persuadable. My motivations were not to persuade (as I explained in my last post to you).

Agreed. However, just because someone doesn't care about a fact, doesn't mean that they don't know that fact. It still means that they don't know it and are thus less informed about it. As I said earlier, a smarter person could easily do what you're doing here. "Well inflation may technically be down in 2024, but I don't GAF because prices are still too damn high. I'm voting Trump. #MAGA". Such a person would still correctly answer that question.

Again, I said many, many times in those text walls that I agree that this is a bad strategy. On the other hand, it seems to work well for conservatives. They also have active disdain for liberals and you have to have Rich Muny levels of denial to think they don't. Is it a different flavor of disdain? Perhaps, but it is disdain nevertheless. As I've explained, harnessing the power of disdain works much better in one direction.

OK, LOL.

Man, you're really dense. Trump always talks about the stock market. Like constantly. Earlier this year he claimed credit for gains claiming that it was just in anticipation of his election (and if it was down he would have blamed it on Biden). As something that is constantly brought up by Trump, you would think that Trump slappies would know what is going on with it.

Similarly on crime, I'm sure I can find you a reference of Trump saying during this campaign that crime is currently "at levels never seen before". If you need a link, let me know. That's his talking point. Crime is worse than ever. In this case, the Trump slappies believed his misinformation and thought that to be a fact. It is not. Violent crime is not at or near "all time highs" as the question asked. That is false.

No you didn't. Read above.

Nah, you cooked up some conspiracy about how the Kamala-friendly polling company was trying mislead Trump voters. What purpose would that even serve.

I guess we're not even trying now. Yeah, 15% of 1000 respondents said that they don't really follow the news. Let's just ignore that! Would also love to see your analysis on the bias in that one. The entire survey is linked in the source. Can't wait! This is going to be entertaining AF.

That cool and all and maybe in some different context we could squint really hard and accept your definition. Unfortunately, when you're having a dialogue more or less with one person (which is what this AIDSfest as, as no one else really gives a ****), "you all" includes that person. I can't even believe you're going to die on this hill.

Yeah, we have several bits of data that suggest one thing. No data that supports the opposite. I wonder which is more likely to be true. It's truly a mystery.

Or as I said earlier

"So what we're left with is "you failed to prove your case". That's all you have left. Sure, you can always claim that. Let's see what what we've got

-A poll with some facts. People who didn't know those facts tended to vote Trump (yes I know you have problems with this, and I take issue with those problems).
-It sounds like even you agree that people who are less educated, tend to vote Trump
-People who are less educated tend to be less intelligent (I posted a link to a study from a peer-reviewed journal that shows this, but you don't seem convinced...something about liberal arts degrees)
-I recently posted some data showing that voters who said they didn't really follow the news tended to vote Trump.

What do we not have? Data to the contrary. I know you didn't claim have any. You'll be happy to know that I've looked a bit. I haven't found any either. Nothing from Fox News or Newsmax or OAN or whatever.

So, sure, I could find you more data like in the list above, and I'm sure you would just dismiss that as well. Doesn't matter what the evidence is. Your mind is clearly made up. But a reasonable person would have to admit that all of the above in the aggregate would make the proposition that "dumber/less intelligent/less informed voters tend to vote Trump" more likely to be true than not true. All the data (imperfect though it may be) is only pointing one way, but if there is one thing Rich Muny is sure of, it's that it can't be true."

That's just a lot of copium, Melk. You haven't shown Kamala voters to be more intelligent or better informed than anyone. I've shown that a bunch of them aren't very smart, as it didn't occur to them that going around acting superior -- with no justification BTW -- would harm them in the election. But, as I said, I hope purple haired gender studies majors will keep telling mechanics and owners of plumbing businesses how how dumb they think they are.

We've been through this already.

Let's see what what we've got

-A poll with some facts. People who didn't know those facts tended to vote Trump (yes I know you have problems with this, and I take issue with those problems).
-It sounds like even you agree that people who are less educated, tend to vote Trump
-People who are less educated tend to be less intelligent (I posted a link to a study from a peer-reviewed journal that shows this, but you don't seem convinced...something about liberal arts degrees)
-I recently posted some data showing that voters who said they didn't really follow the news tended to vote Trump.

What do we not have? Data to the contrary. I know you didn't claim have any. You'll be happy to know that I've looked a bit. I haven't found any either. Nothing from Fox News or Newsmax or OAN or whatever....

a reasonable person would have to admit that all of the above in the aggregate would make the proposition that "dumber/less intelligent/less informed voters tend to vote Trump" more likely to be true than not true. All the data (imperfect though it may be) is only pointing one way, but if there is one thing Rich Muny is sure of, it's that it can't be true.

Shown? That word is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. I love it. I post some actual sourced facts and Rich Muny comes up with the the most loltastic responses.

"Those facts are biased. Harris voters would know those" (that's kind of the point, they know reality)
"Harris voters may be more educated. Doesn't mean they're smarter" (based on what, I'm not sure. Something about liberal arts degrees)
"People who didn't follow the news, tended to vote Trump? Only 15%? Who cares" (I don't even get this one)

You, on the other, hand have shown almost no data on anything. Certainly not on this claim. Is it true? Possibly. Did you show or prove it? Based on the standards you apply to me, clearly not.

Did you link to any data showing this? Nope! It's one of the many things that you've just decided is true based on thinking about it. When you think something is true, things like sources and data aren't really necessary. That's the stuff of research papers. It's certainly not the kind of thing that a self-described "dealer in facts" would be interested in!

So tell, me how exactly did you prove that? Remember you've go to hold yourself to the same ridiculous standards that you place on all the other information that doesn't conform to your world view. Good luck with that!

probably no one will see this in amongst all this high end political strategy but....a fitness question

I'm getting soreness on the inside of my elbows on pull day. it's a sharp, hot, shooting pain that is mainly on the inside point of the elbow but does run up and down away from the elbow joint a little too.

it started from doing too many pull ups but I'm now getting a sharp pain on the inside of both elbows when I do pretty much any back exercise and also on biceps. it's still sharpest on pull ups, which i've stopped and it's manageable on the other exercises, but still very much there

other than total rest, has anyone followed other courses of action to reduce/get rid of a similar pain