2023-2024 NC/LC THREAD
once more do we meet in this place!
Only if the straddle will ever fold, which it really shouldn't, in which case your chance of stealing is 0% or close to 0%, at least preflop. This does not necessarily mean we should play tighter, only that immediate fold/steal equity is not a reason to raise.
No, because on a forum of thinking players, one guy says you need to tighten up and the next guy says you need to loosen up. They cannot both be right. One of the benefits of turning on the straddle is that a lot of players adjust incorrectly, including players who normally play quite well.
Yep, it is hard to know how to adjust. However, in the games I play, I'm typically the only person who plays quite well, so the straddle will possibly make me play worse and might make others play better, which is why I am not a fan of them.
Let me help you guys out with some straddle math. When a rec asks if the table wants to straddle every hand, he is giving you 2 options:
1) Tell him no, he reduces his VPIP from 60 to 45, and he leaves the game earlier than he otherwise would.
2) Tell him yes, he increases his VPIP from 60 to 85 while tossing out double straddles, and he plays until he is felted. He might even ask to double the stakes!
And some people obviously are nits who are bad for the game.
For what it's worth, "Splitsuit" Sweeney shows -- for NLHE, not limit -- that GTO ranges widen and range composition changes when a UTG straddle is in play.
No, because on a forum of thinking players, one guy says you need to tighten up and the next guy says you need to loosen up. They cannot both be right. One of the benefits of turning on the straddle is that a lot of players adjust incorrectly, including players who normally play quite well.
One of my favorite things about the game I play in is that a lot of the above average players love to cold call raises and I frequently get to see the flop for one more bet from the big blind. When the straddle is on, the next VPIP is usually a 3-bet and I have to fold my big blind way more often. I doubt anyone would argue you should be looser in this spot (3-bet pot vs single-raised pot). I am not a fan of this dynamic shift.
On the other hand, I’m not sure we should be folding anything from the straddle for one more bet. So here we have a situation where we are frequently forced to fold hands with decent equity and solid playability from the big blind while also having to defend the bottom of our range from the straddle and usually play the hand out from the worst position. I am also not a fan of this dynamic shift.
I imagine our EV from all the other positions should increase. Does it make up for the loss in EV from the three blind positions? I don’t know. Do I have faith in my ability to adjust to these conditions better than my opponents? Absolutely. Am I in a financial position to want to drastically increase my day-to-day variance? lol not really.
All that being said, I’m going to embrace the straddle if they want it. I don’t want to be the dude that doesn’t chop AND doesn’t want to play a straddle game. I think I’m generally well liked when people get to know me but I could definitely work on being more rec/reg friendly overall.
Attack straddles with merciless aggression. People concern themselves about lacking fold equity preflop but should relish the opportunity to have players who probably suck postflop put in 3+ small bets preflop with terrible hands, frequently when out of position with relation to you.
I imagine our EV from all the other positions should increase. Does it make up for the loss in EV from the three blind positions? I don’t know.
Dude, you're thinking about this in such a fundamentally flawed way. I've already pointed out any EV loss from the straddle is incurred by every player (assuming no straddle defectors). It is totally irrelevant whether the EV loss from the blinds/straddle is offset by the EV gain from other positions. What matters is your relative EV gain/loss compared to the other players.
Dude, you're thinking about this in such a fundamentally flawed way. I've already pointed out any EV loss from the straddle is incurred by every player (assuming no straddle defectors). It is totally irrelevant whether the EV loss from the blinds/straddle is offset by the EV gain from other positions. What matters is your relative EV gain/loss compared to the other players.
Sure, and I think an EV gain is usually going to go to bad players who are now accidentally playing better.
Looser players always play better in large pots than small ones. A good player's edge is greater in small pots.
Some posters in this forum need to be locked in a steel cage and forced to play for rolls against DonJuan and 7 Eastern European online crushers. After going busto, they will robotically reply "Yes, daddy" any time a rec asks to do something harmlessly silly like straddling every hand.
Rofl, I am studying PLO a bit and just came across this thread where high stakes PLO regs are telling chillrob how dumb it is not to straddle when everyone else is straddling. But he sticks to his guns! In case anyone needs any more proof that he is a troll, here ya go:
Sure, and I think an EV gain is usually going to go to bad players who are now accidentally playing better.
Looser players always play better in large pots than small ones. A good player's edge is greater in small pots.
I think you know this is overly simplistic. Yes, the old SSLHE maxim is that bad players play too many hands and go too far with them, so a larger pot punishes that behavior less than a smaller pot. But people are bad in all sorts of ways. Like overfolding in big pots. You generate more Sklansky bucks when someone folds significant equity--or even the winner--in a giant juiced up pot than you do in 10 pots where someone calls getting 5:1 but they really need like 8:1 or whatever to break even. Big straddle pots with wide ranges create all sorts of opportunities for people to make mistakes, and we profit from mistakes. We can't just focus on one way in which a big pot might make some bad players play less bad.
Rofl, I am studying PLO a bit and just came across this thread where high stakes PLO regs are telling chillrob how dumb it is not to straddle when everyone else is straddling. But he sticks to his guns! In case anyone needs any more proof that he is a troll, here ya go:
Apparently you can't read, because because I said nothing there about the merits of straddling or not. I just said it doesn't make someone an a$$hole just because they don't want to straddle. Sorry you disagree.
That thread is about someone wanting to play a small PLO game, but there is no small game because of the straddles.
I think you know this is overly simplistic. Yes, the old SSLHE maxim is that bad players play too many hands and go too far with them, so a larger pot punishes that behavior less than a smaller pot. But people are bad in all sorts of ways. Like overfolding in big pots. You generate more Sklansky bucks when someone folds significant equity--or even the winner--in a giant juiced up pot than you do in 10 pots where someone calls getting 5:1 but they really need like 8:1 or whatever to break even. B
Most bad players in my game do not have the big mistake of overfolding. It's too bad, because years ago I used to be able to steal a lot of pots.
But I wasn't only focused on that - I also said that I probably play worse with a straddle.
Someone asked for opinions. I gave mine others gave theirs. Don't know why you're focused on mine.
Most bad players in my game do not have the big mistake of overfolding. It's too bad, because years ago I used to be able to steal a lot of pots.
But I wasn't only focused on that - I also said that I probably play worse with a straddle.
Someone asked for opinions. I gave mine others gave theirs. Don't know why you're focused on mine.
You quoted me and I was just continuing the dialogue by responding to you. Not trying to be adversarial or anything.
You quoted me and I was just continuing the dialogue by responding to you. Not trying to be adversarial or anything.
Ok, I guess I got defensive because you said it was simplistic. Because of course it is, I can't put every nuance in a short post.
Also because Unguarded seems to be obsessed with me now, finding old posts and then completely misrepresenting them.
Rofl, I am studying PLO a bit and just came across this thread where high stakes PLO regs are telling chillrob how dumb it is not to straddle when everyone else is straddling. But he sticks to his guns! In case anyone needs any more proof that he is a troll, here ya go:
That is not a fair characterization of that thread. It is more of a debate between people who think that catering to the fun players is a good thing and people who think IST JEST WRNONG TWO MAKE SUM1 STRDLEL WEN THE DUNT WANT TWO!!1!!, and chillrob happens to be in the second camp.
That is not a fair characterization of that thread. It is more of a debate between people who think that catering to the fun players is a good thing and people who think IST JEST WRNONG TWO MAKE SUM1 STRDLEL WEN THE DUNT WANT TWO!!1!!, and chillrob happens to be in the second camp.
Of course both of those things are true. But the one of the catering people was insulting the guy who didn't want to straddle.
That is not a fair characterization of that thread. It is more of a debate between people who think that catering to the fun players is a good thing and people who think IST JEST WRNONG TWO MAKE SUM1 STRDLEL WEN THE DUNT WANT TWO!!1!!, and chillrob happens to be in the second camp.
I am simply establishing a pattern of trolling. Take the following quote from that thread:
"Many times I'm at a table where all the other players are playing ridiculous starting hands. If I fold my bad hands, does that make me an *******?"
For every second that we spend pondering that quote, God kills a kitten.
I don't really give grief to someone who refuses to straddle, unless I'm friendly with them and I know it will be taken well. Far worse than someone who refuses to straddle is someone who will look for any and every opportunity to dodge or justify not posting their straddle. There's a certain guy I play with a lot who is like this -- he will agree to straddle if everyone agrees but the minute someone doesn't post a straddle for whatever reason (usually they just forgot), he will insta-opt-out and hem and haw about how it's only fair if everyone does it and that's all he agreed to do.
Now, I suppose he could legitimately feel like it's unfair to him to have to straddle, but my read is that he is intentionally angling and is just looking for any excuse to not post the straddle. It's really short-sighted because it creates a domino effect, but whatever.
The main reason it bothers me is that it essentially requires someone to become the straddle police and make sure a straddle is out every hand. And that's ****ing exhausting. It doesn't help that the dealers can get in trouble if they do anything to facilitate, even just by asking a player if they want to straddle. I don't think they get in trouble by letting people put the straddle in late, thankfully.
I am simply establishing a pattern of trolling. Take the following quote from that thread:
"Many times I'm at a table where all the other players are playing ridiculous starting hands. If I fold my bad hands, does that make me an *******?"
For every second that we spend pondering that quote, God kills a kitten.
Seems like you misinterpreted that entire thread.
I won't mediate for free but feel as though I could do so and help the parties gain an understanding of the other.
I think everyone understands. Unguarded just likes find any way to criticise me because I once dared to disagree with him about how a hand should be played and have asked questions about his decisions. He doesn't want anyone to think or learn, just to kowtow to his wisdom.
To be perfectly honest, I decided to study double board plo bomb pots the other day since they are a thing in my state. I typed "bomb" in the search box in the PLO forum and started reading every relevant thread. The straddle thread was on page 3 and looked interesting to me. And hey, look! It's chillrob pulling the same troll job one year ago in a completely different forum! I thought it was so relevant and hilarious that I quickly linked it here despite only skimming that thread. I have no intention of actually reading that thread in detail. Divine intervention is divine intervention. I came across that thread for a reason. So it is written and so it shall come to pass. Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."
It's not trolling if it is sincere.
