2023-2024 NC/LC THREAD

Looks like I'm not going to be playing tonight, so here are the results of my first full month of not chopping (also includes three sessions from January):

Total: +$1069
Big Blind: +$732
Small Blind: +$746
Hourly increase/decrease: +$7.75/hour

Notes:

-I started tracking BvB spots on January 26th, but didn't start separating positions until my third session of tracking.

-I will post my results, good or bad, so this is not a brag post - just pure transparency and curiosity.

-I figure six months of full-time play is a reasonable sample size of hands - not a good one, but a reasonable one. Anyways, I did some rough math and figured it would take 15+ years for me to have a similar sample size of BvB hands from live play so by no means do I think the data I ever present here is proof of anything.

-In addition to all the reasons that led me to this decision, not chopping is decent prep for WSOP - especially for the 3k 6-max. Even if this a minorly -EV decision, I think the experience of always playing BvB is invaluable. It either gives me an extra edge in WSOP fields or closes the gap on their edge.

-I realized about halfway through the month that I was playing way too loose from the small blind against loose players in the big blind. I was probably only folding bottom 15% and the bottom of that VPIP range just does dreadful OOP against loose, sticky players.

-Also realized I was probably defending the big blind too light. Some of these people are playing so tight from the small blind that I feel like I shouldn't be defending so liberally.

-I haven't employed a limping strategy from the small blind because it feels bad, but when the big blind is loose and passive is it something that makes any sense?

-

Wow, uh, good luck tracking that accurately.

It’s not that hard. Doesn’t come up a ton unless we are short-handed. Just write a note after a BvB hand. There are probably a few hands where I took out too much rake not realizing we were briefly 6-handed or something, but it’s really not complicated lol.

Number of hands?

I’m not doing that. Just keeping a running tally of each position after each hand and then converting to a spreadsheet after each session. I’ve never tracked per 100 playing live anyway so that kind of win rate expression means little to me, plus I might not be alive to see the long run of this anyway.

I made a rough guess that I play about 15 BvB hands per 8 hour session.

Why do your two position figures not add up to the total? Maybe I'm not sure what you're counting.

I guess you skimmed the notes section

My biggest issue with playing all of the time with oppressive rake is that it is rude and can make your opponents dislike playing with you. Even if they don't actually play fewer hours with you, they will likely play harder against you and just generally improve at poker. I don't really see an upside selfishly or unselfishly. It just seems like uncontrolled ego which is one of our worst enemies in poker.

I don't claim to be the best at making the recs happy when I play live, but I do make an honest effort. Ideally, I would be more extroverted and charming. But I am definitely way less of a dick than I am online when I am interacting with a bunch of regs. Fortunately, most recs are very nice people who make it easy for me to get along with them.

A quick lesson from the PTR era... myself and other regs that I've talked to would devote special study sessions to opponents who we dislike. If some jackass wanted to talk a bunch of trash in chat, I would do a deep dive on him and pick apart all of his leaks that I otherwise might have never noticed. If a mass multitabler wanted to take 30 seconds for every play, I would go out of my way to turn his breakeven winrate before rakeback to negative.

If you were in my high rake 20/40 game choosing to always play BvB while recording your results in your phone as we played, you would get my A+ game instead of my usual live autopilot for sure.

Imagine thinking it’s rude that someone would rather play poker than not play poker. Even the people that are initially flustered get over it eventually. I am on my phone way more than I should be when I’m playing so no one thinks I’m sitting there recording BvB results lol. Also, in my experience when I get under someone’s skin they tend to go out of their way to play even worse against me, not better. There are at least six regulars that don’t chop in a room that usually has one table and sometimes has two games going. It’s not like I’m putting myself on an island out there.

I did read the notes, still don't get what you mean.

I kept track of BvB hands for two sessions without distinguishing results by position. Starting in the third session I tracked small blind and big blind results separately. Of course they don’t add up to the total. I lost like $400 BvB in the first two sessions. That’s the difference between the total and the two positions added together.

Oh, I did not think of the possibility that you lost money before you split them but won after.

Yes, I imagine a lot of recs feel that way. They sometimes think it is rude to not check it down with them when it gets heads up.

Logic and reality are two different things. And you are playing with these people usually because their logic is poor.

It's super common for recs to think that people who don't chop are rude. They want to play the next hand... not watch us nickel-and-dime each other in tiny pots. The recs run the show. We are irrelevant peons at best.

lol that’s where I draw the line. I am fine with chopping since it comes at a mutual benefit but I find these “let’s just check it down” recs always find a situation where they think it’s justified to bet anyway. they just want to freeroll you. not that I ever checked it down with people but yeah, just my observation.

I've never noticed anyone unhappy because someone didn't want to check it down heads up. Never even had anyone ask me to except once when I took a poker trip with someone. Not similar at all to chopping the blinds.

I've seen people unhappy about a refusal to check it down. Especially in 'jackpot hands.' it's the type of rec that thinks stealing blinds from LP is rude (if they see the button reach for chips, they'll see 'we chop. ' some recs also think of you check back the flop then you're signaling intent to check down every street. I've checked back the flop and the turn l and beyond the river, and had angry looks from the player who folded. Kinda like 'I thought we were on the same page here. '

If someone gets mad at me for anything like that I simply reply that poker is a competitive game. Some recs think that it's a group effort against the house for promos or something. They're great because they never bluff.

I’ve def seen all those things, even at the 20/40 level, but generally the higher in stakes you go, the less that kind of thing happens. Same with people caring about chopping the blinds lol. I guess I’m a sicko though. Back in my chopping days, I always hoped the button would raise when I was in the big blind before I even looked at my hand. It’s interesting that you guys have the perception that being a rake nit is more akin to being “fun player friendly” than someone that just wants to play hands.

Some 'fun players' want to play all the hands, but some like to chop. If they like to play, then I really like to sit on their left. Playing your BB and chopping your SB is the best of both worlds.

Lol who in their right mind would let you get away with that?

'you chop? '

'i chop with my left, play with my right '

I guess if you always chop and you're seated next to a fun rec who plays, you'll gain this benefit, but then you'd have to usually chop. I guess in Cali chopping makes sense cause of the drop, but in Vegas where it's a time game almost no good players chop.

I actually have met a person or two who did that, but that's not what I meant. I just meant I try to sit to the direct left of people who don't chop (and especially not to their direct right). I always chop unless it's 5 handed or less.

I'm assuming you play in a drop game? I'm just wondering cause in time games chopping is unheard of among the winners in the game.

If I did chip, I'd do the same thing you do, barring other more important seating considerations (ie I'll change seats as not to have to regularly play OOP against an aggressive expert).

Who in their right mind would chop in a time game?

Yes, but when I am in Vegas I still chop. When I started playing poker seriously I played 10/20 in Atlantic City, which was a time game but still about 90% of people chopped. And there was still some resentment against those who didn't. Not everyone who chops does it because of the rake.

I made the mistake of saying "I don't chop in time games" one time when a rec asked me if I chop. He was like "That just makes no sense to me. Rake is rake!" The 85 IQ know-it-all dealer who never shuts up passionately agreed with him and they broke down in great detail exactly how stupid I was. I wonder how these people manage to do things like get into a vehicle and arrive at point B from point A at a designated time. From then on, I kept it simple with a polite "I play".