Road to crushing high stakes PLO
Old time nlhe pro here, did very well in the early years up till 2016. Got wiped out by serious illness for 6 years. Just getting back on my feet now and started learning plo (mainly 5c) this year.
Let’s see if the dream is still alive in 2023.
The approach is simple, study effectively 3-5hrs every morning, play 1k hands at night. Going full monk mode. The goal is to make 30k+/month.
Will update weekly with my progress.
Also happy to talk in depth strategy in this topic. Feel free to drop any hh’s.
Just binged this entire jewel of a thread. So many gems in here it should be behind a paywall. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us and GL with your goals.
What are your thoughts on openlimping UTG/MP in 6c in general? What would you do with a hand like e.g. KKJJ83 ds (to K and to J) in MP at a loose passive table ?
Thanks for all the kind words guys. It’s really great to hear the content is appreciated. Poker has given me so much so it’s an honour to give back and inspire others.
Short update:
Playing very good poker now, very comfortable and confident at 10/20. I feel ready for 25/50 but when we are confident is when the danger is greatest. So I will remain disciplined, continue what’s working and carefully enter some softer 25/50 line ups.
The power of compound interest at work. Tiny consistent improvements over time.
When you’re playing mark all spots/ranges you don’t feel sure about. Over a few days zoom out: what spots are the most recurring and valuable? Focus your study there. Don’t hammer the trainer mindlessly just focussing on blockers. Really try to distill the key concepts, understand those concepts and then see if you can cross apply them to other spots. Where do you still struggle?
Figure out the key concept/lesson te be learned. But don’t stop there, at that moment begin practice. Open several related instances in trainer and now hammer until flawless. Now we have really ingrained the lesson. Do this every day and after some time you’ll truly understand most of the game tree. It is at this moment, when you don’t have to think about gto anymore, that great poker can come. When all the fundamentals have become intuitive your outlook on the game will be so clear and effortless that creativity can flow.
What are your thoughts on openlimping UTG/MP in 6c in general? What would you do with a hand like e.g. KKJJ83 ds (to K and to J) in MP at a loose passive table ?
Most the games on apps play with a lot of ante structures so limping is a crucial strategy from all positions.
But even when playing without antes and from EP I would always consider the limping option. At LAP tables I expect that a good chunk of your EP vpip can be played as limps, exactly with the kind of combos you describe.
Thanks for your answer, glad you are doing well, GL!!
Just started reading thru the thread. You're level of thinking definitely is pretty high, am excited to read thru the rest.
Never even though about different categories of exploits, super interesting stuff
Great read so far! Good luck at the tables and with the illness. Sent you PM.
did you try dryfasting to heal yourself? It basically burns everything in your body and only strong and healthy cells survive. I do 3-5 days, 1-2 times per year. In russia they do up to 11 days dryfasting retreats to heal very servere diseases with doctors who supervise the whole process.
Nice thread I also started playing PLO5 on GGPoker, with the game getting harder and harder do you think it's still possible for a good reg to win $100K+ per year playing PLO100 ?
did you try dryfasting to heal yourself? It basically burns everything in your body and only strong and healthy cells survive. I do 3-5 days, 1-2 times per year. In russia they do up to 11 days dryfasting retreats to heal very servere diseases with doctors who supervise the whole process.
That’s hardcore😮
I’ve done multiple 3-5 day water fasts and it did feel beneficial, I’ll look into it.
Nice thread I also started playing PLO5 on GGPoker, with the game getting harder and harder do you think it's still possible for a good reg to win $100K+ per year playing PLO100 ?
I’m not sure how rake is on GG as I don’t play there. I think if you’re a good reg you could do 10bb/100 so that would mean you’d have to play 1M hands to make 100k. That’s a lot of volume but it can be done.
Nice thread I also started playing PLO5 on GGPoker, with the game getting harder and harder do you think it's still possible for a good reg to win $100K+ per year playing PLO100 ?
In order to make 100k+ per year at PLO 100 you’d need to stay a couple steps ahead of other regs regarding site/game selection. Most likely not gonna happen putting in high volume in the same game year round.
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker Tracking Software
PL 6 Card Omaha 2(BB)
HERO ($201) [VPIP: 22.7% | PFR: 12.3% | AGG: 27.6% | Flop Agg: 26.9% | Turn Agg: 34.7% | 3Bet: 5.6% | 4Bet: 25.7% | Fold to 4Bet: 1.2% | Hands: 25615]
BB ($422.30) [VPIP: 33.7% | PFR: 22.9% | AGG: 27.6% | Flop Agg: 35.9% | Turn Agg: 28.6% | 3Bet: 11.9% | Fold to 3Bet: 6.3% | 4Bet: 31.3% | Hands: 908]
Dealt to Hero: 6♥ 9♦ Q♠ A♠ T♦ J♥
HERO Raises To $6, BB Raises To $18, HERO Raises To $54, BB Calls $36
Hero SPR on Flop: [1.36 effective]
Flop ($108): 8♦ K♦ 4♦
BB Checks, HERO
Hi Crimson, I would be interested in how you view this spot? we have talked about this in my study group but cant seem to come up with an answer, any feedback is appreciated. Thanks and GL
Hehe that’s a fun one.
So your hand is a standard check back here but let’s think about this board a little bit deeper.
Most opponents at this stake will mindlessly auto check this to the 4bettor even though OOP makes slightly more flushes here (as his 3b range tends to have mostly double suited hands and your 4b range is more like decent aces heavy).
Also if opponent holds the Ad he wants to start betting because he’s blocking a lot of the cbets. Also, since it’s 6c it’s always a weird dynamic on mono boards: without the Ad it can be suicide to run a huge bluff, but since you have 6 cards it’s really hard to have the Ad blocker and not have another diamond in your hand.
And finally, with the SPR at 1, he can also start betting out a second or even third nut flush and just play it for stacks. He could bet small on the flop and that could actually be quite an effective play with pairs plus a high diamond blocker.
The ev of betting will be very close to the ev of checking here for most hands in your range btw (except something without any diamonds at all perhaps).
Even with strong flushes, with the SPR so shallow you can still get money in on later streets so there is not much ev loss when checking behind.
Considering our entire range is so close I might only bet some nutflushes and nf blocker here and check everything else back. Since villain auto checks the flop likely we have no information about where in the range he is. When we start with a check we will gain some information on the turn when he has to decide wether to probe or not. This takes a hand that was indifferent on the flop and allows us to make a slightly superior decision instead.
Thanks for the detailed answer, really interesting insides in the pool tendencies
how ya doin. sucks to see the health issues are still holding you back
So to clarify their range check OOP, while different from gto, is not bad by any means, there is no real ev loss, that’s the key to understanding this board. For most of your range this board is quite static and with the shallow SPR you can still very easily get all in by the river. It would really not be bad for either player to check their entire range on this board. And it would also not be terrible to bet it with 50% of their range for a tiny size.
As an exercise it can be quite useful to check range on the flop and structure your range from the turn onward. With just two streets left in play it will be quite straightforward how to construct all your ranges, which hands are calldowns, which hands are one street or two street bluffs. Go through it in a solver if you can and you will really not see any surprising combinations.
Then when you understand that balance well you can start betting some hands on the flop. But because the size is small and the board is static this is essentially not that different from checking the flop and playing two street poker. There are only small differences in total betting volume and equity.
Update: rage tilt
Have mostly been playing very good poker albeit some learning errors. The 10/20 6c game has been quite soft but I’m down 50BIs or so at it and last session it starting getting to me. “Downswings are a fictional concept. I don’t tilt. I’m a seasoned pro” I tell myself. Suddenly I make a terrible punt call, failing the discipline to lay down my obviously beat hand.
This suffocating feeling surges right to my head, ive been holding the lid for too long. This is not tilt, not anger, it’s something else all together. Primal murderous rage. “MOTHER****ER!!!!” I scream on top of my lungs. I resist the urge to smash my laptop through my car window and instead project my anger to the sweater I’m wearing literally ripping myself out of it. Sitting bare chested in the driver seat I start my car, chug three cans or red bull and start blasting Slipknot, adding fuel to the fire.
I head for the gym and run everyone off the road that’s in my path in my Ford F150 while repeatedly screaming “MOTHER****ER!!!”
Slipknot blasting in my ears
WALLS LET ME FALL **** YOU ALL
GET A GRIP DONT LET ME SLIP TILL I DROP THE BALL
I arrive at the gym wrap up my hands amd start hitting the heavy bag no warm up with everything I got spitting and foaming like a stray dog with rabies.
PRESS YOUR FACE AGAINST THE GLASS SUFFER
**** THIS **** IM SICK OF IT YOURE GOING DOWN
THIS IS A WAAAAAAARRRRRR
After 6x 4 min rounds I decide it’s a good workout. Could press for 10 rounds but that would leave me all exhausted for the rest of the day. We’re older and wiser now. Knock out 100 pull ups and weighted lunges and finally I can breathe again.
So let’s try not get there again. The frustration exclusively comes in 3rd-4th hour into a session. So force myself to break every 2hours for a few minutes.
Update: rage tilt
Have mostly been playing very good poker albeit some learning errors. The 10/20 6c game has been quite soft but I’m down 50BIs or so at it and last session it starting getting to me. “Downswings are a fictional concept. I don’t tilt. I’m a seasoned pro” I tell myself. Suddenly I make a terrible punt call, failing the discipline to lay down my obviously beat hand.
This suffocating feeling surges right to my head, ive been holding the lid for too long. This is not tilt, not anger,
😆
6c must be absurd to play and 50BIs down sounds insane - I salute you. I think as poker players we need to force ourselves to stomach variance out of necessity, but we'll always remain human so it will get to all of us at some point 😀. There's been so many times where I tell myself I can handle the downswing and try to grind through it. Slowly but surely it gets to me more and more. It's probably not affecting my play to a high degree as it would a tilter, but it most certainly has to have some impact. You get worked up so much, but when things go well again you forget why you were even sweating. For this reason, I've come to pretty much the same conclusion you have - cut that **** and enjoy a break.
Right, what really doesn’t work is telling yourself you’re not tilting when in fact you are. Gotta embrace that your human and find a framework to work with those emotions.
What I’m doing right now that works well is taking break after 1.5-2hrs as well as sticking to the game I’m very comfortable with. When I see some showdowns at 25/50+ I am anxious to jump in, however hitting a bad run there could seriously rock my confidence and so I will save those line ups for when I get some momentum going.
On to some fanboy stuff: I talk hands with my friend who is maybe the 3-5th best plo player of all times. What stands out about his process is not just how clean, concise and accurate it is but also the absolute harmony of it: he makes extreme exploits in certain spots while retaining a strong sense of balance and equilibrium. So while he goes far out of range at times you’ll never catch him off guard and make a blunder. He’s not a solver nerd but somehow instantly sees equilibrium and player tendencies for whatever odd formation is thrown at him.
This is a rare combination, most players are either very strong in equilibrium play and don’t go as far out of range at times or they are hyper aggro exploitative players but occasionally make a punt, think of a player like Omaha4rollz. What also is impressive is my friends thought process is absolutely instant. I can send him the most awkward spot in the most confusing hand history and he’ll make sense of the situation instantly. Extraordinary talent and a lot of experience, what’s great about this is you can throw him in any odd variation, say 6c double board bomb pots and he’ll crush instantly.
Speaking of power rankings he spoke very highly of Sanita and Berrie and somewhat surprisingly mentioned Linus was one of the toughest players he ever played (for those who remember, Linus dabbled in some hu plo matches some years ago).
Sure let me explain a few different categories of exploits.
The level 1 exploit goes something like, based on opponents profile/tells in the hand he never bluffs this river so I massively overfold. Or villain never has good hands and is stationy so we valuebet light. Of course you know how to do this quite well and so every session.
Technical exploits would be understanding more deeply the theory of each texture than your opponent, understanding how they misunderstand it and adjusting all your ran
Just came here to say this is a joy to read. A master at work. Such a deep understanding of the game(both of you :p)
The key to beating plo and how to study
The key to beating midstakes/other regs is understanding how their range constructions lead to imbalances by the turn and especially by the river. This is actually something the old school players pre solver were good at because there was no other way to win but I feel that it’s something people have become worse at.
Particularly in plo you should largely forget about the theoretical notion of I have to call x/y/z part of my range to this size bet on the riv
This is really well written I relate to this. In a lot of spots you can just over fold turns in spots where people aren’t barreling enough. A lot of times you have hands that call turn to fold river but it just loses infinite money when people aren’t giving up river cuz they are under bluffing then. Minimizing losses in spots like this leads to higher win rates. Definetly liked the way you put it
Update: rage tilt
Have mostly been playing very good poker albeit some learning errors. The 10/20 6c game has been quite soft but I’m down 50BIs or so at it and last session it starting getting to me. “Downswings are a fictional concept. I don’t tilt. I’m a seasoned pro” I tell myself. Suddenly I make a terrible punt call, failing the discipline to lay down my obviously beat hand.
This suffocating feeling surges right to my head, ive been holding the lid for too long. This is not tilt, not anger,
real as **** 😂😂😂😂😂
Any updates? How are things going?
Thanks for the kind words guys appreciate it!
Things are going as good as they could respectively! My body is getting stronger every day and I’m feeling very confident now at 2k and 5k plo albeit an occasional blunder.
Most errors I make now have to do with adjusting further to the pool and so unfortunately there isn’t a whole lot I can improve on theory anymore which is a bit sad cause I was really enjoying that study grind.
Consistency and volume are key now which I have to be patient with, as my body is still healing it is not something I can force or hammer out. If I get 15k hands in next month that would be great and I aim to work it up to 30-40k hands from there. If I can get that volume at 5k and 10k I would meet my goal of 50-100k/month.
