Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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33677 Replies
I'm not indifferent to it. The US government is. That's not how the USA chooses allies. Look at Saudi Arabia itself!
The "oil" is reductionist yes, because there are other economic interests. There is a lot of non-oil business with Israel.
Like I said, that’s just not how successful geopolitics in the 21st century works. I agree that SA is not a bastion of western values but as far as Muslim and Arab states go you have to choose the lesser of evils. SA trying to wash all of its money clean through western avenues is not a great thing, I agree with you there. However, they have shown to be much more reasonable and aren’t openly chanting death to America and Israel.
Boiling it all down to oil interests seems reductionist. What you're saying is you’re indifferent to the rise of fundamentalist Muslim extremism and you don’t think it’s a threat to the west.
The commitment to Israel dates to 1948, decades before the Islamic revival. It was about oil.
USA really doesn't care about democracy. The best example of this is how it didn't care one bit that Franco ruled in Spain for 30 years after WW2.
Like I said, that’s just not how successful geopolitics in the 21st century works. I agree that SA is not a bastion of western values but as far as Muslim and Arab states go you have to choose the lesser of evils. SA trying to wash all of its money clean through western avenues is not a great thing, I agree with you there. However, they have shown to be much more reasonable and aren’t openly chanting death to America and Israel.
Of course they suppress anti-US (and proxy) sentiment. The lives of their authoritarian ruling class depends on it. USA only "has" to choose them because of their oil. If there were no oil in the Gulf, they would get no more attention or military equipment than some conflict in Africa where the economic interests are much lower. (There are still economic interests of course and the USA is involved of course, but in proportion to economic interests)
But Micro your claims don't even really make sense. Even a country like Egypt was complicit. Egypt knew about all the tunnels going through Rafah. They made a tremendous amount of money allowing the smuggling to happen. And Egypt isn't an ally. An Israeli journalist isn't even allowed into Egypt for reporting, and that's before Oct 7th. Best still was when Egypt denied the tunnels existed in the press! That was priceless.
We now know just how much of the military hardware went through those tunnels. Human assets too....
Mostly just symbolic. Or explain why the Israeli air force flew French planes in the 67 war.
See the cite I edited into my post.
US support did grow later on, but it was far from symbolic before that. The archives are really clear. After Israel won in 1948, it was seen as an effective hedge against local control of oil. The US State Department wanted the Palestinians who were expelled in the Nakba to be returned. They dropped that because Israel was seen as such a good ally.
Meh. That's not relevant though. USA states that advancing democracy is the reason for military interventions everywhere. My point is that that is not the case.
If I contend that military interventions don't lead to democracy, the USA and I are not intervening in Spain for different reasons.
But...I wouldn't have recognized or cooperated with the Spanish government. It was not legitimate.
But Micro your claims don't even really make sense. Even a country like Egypt was complicit. Egypt knew about all the tunnels going through Rafah. They made a tremendous amount of money allowing the smuggling to happen. And Egypt isn't an ally. An Israeli journalist isn't even allowed into Egypt for reporting, and that's before Oct 7th. Best still was when Egypt denied the tunnels existed in the press! That was priceless.
We now know just how much of the military hardware went through those tunn
That's got nothing to do with making sense or not, now you're arguing about the facts, underlying assumptions. Very different and now jumbled conversation. I don't know that you are contending that Egypt is at war with Israel and I'm certainly not contending that they are allies. I don't see this thing where you tally items like whether or not reporters are allowed going anywhere.
See the cite I edited into my post.
US support did grow later on, but it was far from symbolic before that. The archives are really clear. After Israel won in 1948, it was seen as an effective hedge against local control of oil. The US State Department wanted the Palestinians who were expelled in the Nakba to be returned. They dropped that because Israel was seen as such a good ally.
Again another pretty impossible argument because it's about degrees of something. I say mostly symbolic, you say, no, but it did grow a lot.
Anyway, another thing people forget in the USA/Israel relationship from 1948- the seventies, is that while about oil, it's also about oil and who controls it... meaning USA vs USSR.
tell me more about the mass rape hoax
oh also, almost forgot
^^^Bad link.
Lol citing 2 intellectual jokes that get constantly owned and rarely act in "good faith".
People get emotional when they are gaslit. Hardly surprising.
This is not advocating for any perspectives ITT. I just can't get over referring to Charlie Kirk and Ben Shapiro as positive examples.
Kirk and Shapiro are two of the greatest debaters on the planet. You just hate them because they make your side look dumb.
Haaretz article on Israel using human shields. bc, say the line Bart...
and just for you guys, I unpaywalled it for you https://archive.ph/wKOWd. Doyle, you will need to figure out how to use the browser translate feature. I cant help you with that one.
and for the haters
Unfortunately, that’s not how successful geopolitics work in a globalized world. We get a lot out of our relationship with Israel, and supporting them is logical. Israel just incapacitated Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran. Israel helps us keep nukes out of Iran’s hands. The Palestinians, on the other hand have nothing to offer in terms of an alliance. The culmination of Palestinian society over the past century has been to develop mediocre, yet very cheap methods of killing Jews. America has no
What if I told you if there was no Israel, Hezbollah and Hamas wouldn't exist.
morpheus.jpg
That is because Israel (and its allies) have been projecting so much strength. But make no mistake, if/when this power dynamic changes, the entire Ummah will come together and crush Israel. Even the Palestinians living peacefully in Israel that see Jewish Israelis as friends, would stab those friends in the back when the right situation presented itself (literally and figuratively). They might feel bad about it, but make no mistake, they would still do it. That is just how zero sum tribal cu
The projection of strength, only under the aegis of the U.S., is only part of the explanation. Another significant cause is the corruption of the ruling elites in Arab countries. The elites cooperate and sellout their people in exchange for riches and for access to weapons which they can use to discipline their populations and maintain power. In addition to these carrots they avoid the sticks of confronting the U.S. All we would have to do is attack the Saudis water infrastructure and the Saudis would absolutely crumble (Iran could do this whenever they want as well, a pinning which is never discussed in all this daydreaming about war with Iran).
While strength has a lot to do with it, I don't accept your premise about Palestinians stabbing their Israeli friends in the back. I'm something of a cultural realist. I'm sorry but, the leadership of Israel, those who are conducting this current genocide and have been driving the I/P conflict this whole time, are Europeans in the midst of yet another European colonialist invasion. They can call themselves Semites if they want. I have no problem with how people choose to identify themselves. I respect transgenders identity claims as well Israelis. But they are also Europeans and inherit that culture and perspective. Jews have lived in Palestine, historically, in low numbers, since forever and were accepted. They've been accepted all over the Middle East. The only problem is when they tried to take over and bring others under their heel or expel them. And that is more of a European tendency. Just because you would do something doesn't mean someone else would also do it, here I am speaking on the cultural level. The Israeli elites, the leadership, are Europeans and have been acting like it. There is no justification for thinking the Arabs would behave the same way if they could.
So basically a 2nd or 3rd generation Jew in Israel is european if some of his ancestors were, and hasn't any legitimate claim to live where he (or his parents) were born, while a rwandan that came to the UK 15-20 years ago (or whose both parents did, and he was born in the UK) is a british person 100% and any reference to the fact that he is actually rwandan is racism and a crime of hate speech if used in connection to crimes he committed.
Can't play this game both sides guys, really.
the Rwandan isnt coming to the UK to set up a genocidal ethnostate. thats the difference.
