Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Whether it's LPD or IDF, you LOVE it when armed maniacs break into places and commit very disproportionate and also very incompetently performed acts of violence (32 shots, no hit of the target, some real police magic there)
I blame the bad guys for putting the good guys into horrible situations. Once the bullets start flying proportionality goes out the door.
Whether it's LPD or IDF, you LOVE it when armed maniacs break into places and commit very disproportionate and also very incompetently performed acts of violence (32 shots, no hit of the target, some real police magic there)
Yeah so I'm glad you acknowledge that she wasn't summarily executed in her bed the way Trolly lied she was, we're making progress here.
The context is the IDF killing clearly-marked medical staff and lying about it afterwards. So, no.
Could also be human error so yeah. Very telling that I can readily acknowledge the possibility of a war crime, yet you refuse to acknowledge human error because Israel Bad. Pathetic bad faith posting from you.
Are there any civilian murders you don't immediately stan for?
I've never done this, nor was Taylor murdered, so I think we're good.
Al Jazeera has compiled a database of Israeli soldiers incriminating themselves for war crimes on social media. The IDF does this because they know they have impunity.
It's not human error when you lie about what happened, buddy.
The claim is that Israel directly targeted a photojournalist and her whole family
Nonviolent resistance under siege:
and here is one journalist that they wont be killing. at least not in Gaza. and I am sure they had a target on this guy for months now. and they will probably try to kill him in whatever country he goes to.
but for now I am sure they are very sad they couldnt get this one.
and here is one journalist that they wont be killing. at least not in Gaza. and I am sure they had a target on this guy for months now. and they will probably try to kill him in whatever country he goes to.but for now I am sure they are very sad they couldnt get this one.
Honestly this kind of goes against the narrative that Israel is targeting journalists. I think they are but in this case a fit, military age male running around Gaza you would think he'd have been 6 feet under a year ago. Maybe he was always far away from the frontlines, hospitals and refugee camps all this time.
Honestly this kind of goes against the narrative that Israel is targeting journalists. I think they are but in this case a fit, military age male running around Gaza you would think he'd have been 6 feet under a year ago. Maybe he was always far away from the frontlines, hospitals and refugee camps all this time.
Or he just stayed away from Hamas members, which is kind of saying the same thing you did in a different way.
Or he just stayed away from Hamas members, which is kind of saying the same thing you did in a different way.
It seems pretty clear Israel wants a divisive victory. If their enemy is willing to go to the X extreme, Israel is going to up the ante to the Y extreme without a second thought. They're not going to allow any crack in their armor. As much as their propaganda cries they're the victim they're not going to allow themselves to be the victim again and are ruthless in their execution. Unfortunately they seemed to have cultivated an enemy in Gaza that is willing to force them to the extreme.
It seems pretty clear Israel wants a divisive victory. If their enemy is willing to go to the X extreme, Israel is going to up the ante to the Y extreme without a second thought. They're not going to allow any crack in their armor. As much as their propaganda cries they're the victim they're not going to allow themselves to be the victim again and are ruthless in their executio
no they are just burning children alive bc the West is a truly evil society
It seems pretty clear Israel wants a divisive victory. If their enemy is willing to go to the X extreme, Israel is going to up the ante to the Y extreme without a second thought. They're not going to allow any crack in their armor. As much as their propaganda cries they're the victim they're not going to allow themselves to be the victim again and are ruthless in their executio
Israelis understand they are playing to 2 different audiences, with two very different value systems. To the West you project victimization, because Westerners are empathetic and sympathetic to victims.
To the Arab world you project strength and cruelty, because that is what they respond to. Empathy and kindness are seen as nothing but weaknesses to exploit in this tribal zero sum mindset*.
The current Israeli regime also has a general policy of completely non-proportional over-response to aggression as a deterrent. That believe it or not has probably served it well. Most of the more rational actors in the region have decided aggression against Israel just isn't worth it, regardless of their ideological beliefs.
Unfortunately Western and Gulf State largesse has created very weird incentive structures so that to some regional actors it is (or at least was) rationale to be in a war with Israel; because even following Israel's counter response, Uncle Sam and the Gulf States would predictably come in and bribe them handsomely to stop fighting. And they would always restrain Israel enough so that the counter response was manageable.
*For example, the Arab slave trade lasted over a much, much longer period and involved exponentially more suffering than the transatlantic slave trade. The Arab word for black person and slave is literally the same word, which is still commonly used today, just to show you how far back and common this was.
Of course, due to the widespread practice of male castration (which itself had around a 50% casualty rate as they cut off the penis and testicles which caused a lot of blood loss and complications) there are little descendants from this trade, unlike in the West. And if it wasn't for the Europeans forcing them to stop, the trade would probably still be going strong. Yet, you dont see Africa demanding reparations from the Arab Gulf states, as they constantly do from the West. Because they understand the zero sum Arab mindset, and understand they will get no sympathy, empathy or apologies, and certainly no reparations. To most of the rest of the world that it still operates from a tribal, zero sum mindset Western empathy is just seen as a weakness to exploit.
I think there is actually a valid moral argument that European, especially British, colonialism should be viewed as a historical net positive based solely on them eradicating the widespread practice of slavery from Africa and the Arab world. Although in the new multi-polar world not dominated by the West, we see slavery returning.
For good or bad, Chinese and Russians are completely indifferent to how Arabs and blacks treat each other. So the more Africa and the MENA becomes a Chinese and Russian sphere of influence, as opposed to a Western one, we see changing incentive structures resulting in much more wanton violence and cruelty, including re-introduction of slavery.
Ah damn, forgot about that. That's gotta be if.
I think there is actually a valid moral argument that European, especially British, colonialism should be viewed as a historical net positive based solely on them eradicating the widespread practice of slavery from Africa and the Arab world. Although in the new multi-polar world not dominated by the West, we see slavery returning.
The native people of the Caribbean or Tasmania may beg to differ. Oh wait, there aren't any of them left to complain. Those pesky Palestinians should take note.
The native people of the Caribbean or Tasmania may beg to differ. Oh wait, there aren't any of them left to complain. Those pesky Palestinians should take note.
Human history is mostly just an unbroken chain of this. Genetic evidence indicates human history is generally a long chain of population displacements, where warring males from one group conquer another, kill the males and children, and then take the females for their own. Not much different than many other species of social mammals.
"Displaced natives," including Palestinians, are pretty much just the second to last group of conquerors. With the only difference being because Israel has a modern western moral system (partly compelled and partly intrinsic) there are still 2 million Palestinians within Israel and another few million in Gaza and the West Bank, keeping the conflict going indefinitely, which would not have been permitted in a different place and time.
In a different place and time, it probably would have been similar to the Spanish Reconquista, where all the Muslim (and the Jewish minority of second class citizens) were forced to convert or leave.
Of course one could argue in a different place and time the Western world would never have supported Jews reconquering Israel in the first place, and it wouldn't have happened. And the course of modern Arab history would have gone very differently, with probably a lot less instability and religious fanaticism. And this is probably true too.
You almost reached the logical conclusion that people, regardless of cultural lens, are roughly the same and should be judged as such.
Unfortunately Victor has his "the west is evil" schtick and you have your "Arabs only understand cruelty" thing.
I mean, there are material benefits to the mass murder. but that why we are so evil.
anyway, USA bombed a civilian fuel port in Yemen last night. then they bombed the rescue workers. the West absolutely LOVES to murder rescue workers and paramedics.
You almost reached the logical conclusion that people, regardless of cultural lens, are roughly the same and should be judged as such.
Unfortunately Victor has his "the west is evil" schtick and you have your "Arabs only understand cruelty" thing.
Well, I would argue people are mostly the same, but that is actually a bad thing. Most people are tribal, genocidal and zero sum.
And the modern day western world is the anomaly. And the second half 20th century western liberal project to remake all of humanity in their image has been a giant failure.
And it is very foolish to assume other groups share this peculiar worldview. Indeed they do not, and just view it as a weakness to ruthlessly exploit.
You almost reached the logical conclusion that people, regardless of cultural lens, are roughly the same and should be judged as such.
Unfortunately Victor has his "the west is evil" schtick and you have your "Arabs only understand cruelty" thing.
ofc the West as an Empire is evil. all Western Empires have been evil. its whole prerogative is expansion and extraction of resources by force. this makes things like genocide and slavery inevitable.
I dont mean the people of the West are necessarily evil, although many are. And remember that something like 95% of Israel Jews support the genocide of Palestinians so I am will exclude them from that statement.
