Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Ignoring all the nonsense in the quote, Palestinian society could theoretically be deradicalized. But it would require dismantling UNRWA and the perverse incentive structures that favor radicalization. But I am not optimistic.
Israeli radicalization has mostly been in response to Palestinian (and allies) behavior, especially the 2nd Infintada and Hamas takeover of Gaza. So a secondary effect of Palestinian deradicalization would be Israeli deradicalization. But again, I am not optimistic.
The best way to deradicalize Palestinian society would be to create wealth and opportunity for the people. But unfortunately the institutions that theoretically should be doing this are highly corrupt and malignant; so too many resources are squandered on grift, militarization and radicalization.
This is a pro Israel Republican candidate Valentina Gomez. She is welcomed in Israel which is quite fascinating. Showing the bigoted ways of the Israeli government. …there are clearly many good people in Israel who would totally be against someone like Gomez. But there’s also those obviously in Israeli politics and military who love someone like Gomez.
Not too long ago she was filmed in Israel right on her own Instagram. Some sources say that she received a paid for a trip to Israel. But certainly she was over there in Israel recently again it’s there on her own Instagram page her in Israel supporting Israel. And it’s quite fascinating because Gomez uses the words “dirty Muslims” literally in the wide open.
I mean so there you have this bizarre yet interesting case of this person Gomez who simultaneously supports the war in Gaza while saying Muslims are dirty , and she wants to deport all Muslims and she’s against all Muslims.
Gomez is against the Muslims in general. She is by her own admission …. OK not this stupid pathetic new age term of coded language.
And the fascinating thing the point is just look at this conversation… a percentage of the pro war in Gaza people they lie all the time about popular influencers they don’t like being antisemitic.
“ oh they use coded language. It’s just typical antisemitism.”
No …. That’s not how real life works. Ok you want to see real bigotry and call it out than criticize Gomez. …..this is indeed why the vast majority of the civilized world looks at much of the pro Israel movement and understandably can say their hypocrites, they’re also bigoted. And they are so whiny and annoying. We notice they never actually say anything about people like Gomez ….. There’s others of course, and we talked about them in this thread who have platforms on Fox News. It’s always the same thing from these pro Netanyahu/anti Muslim people …..whining and moaning about influencers that they could never actually quote saying something bad about Jews. …and calling for censorship lying about people they disagree with. It’s pathetic. And I for one along with I believe most Americans are totally fine sitting down with someone like Gomez. Let her have free speech and we can disagree with her. That’s the American way.
Gomez is a blatant grifter who is taking advantage of unbelievably dumb conservatives. There is no reason for anyone on this forum to talk about her
She tried this **** in Missouri, lost and moved to TX, and has seemingly found a benefactor with some connections allowing her to elevate her grift. That is purely a "your team" issue and I personally don't give a **** that an obvious dumb ass like her can fleece your team
Dunyain and those like him who are also supporting the war in Gaza have made all sorts of bizarre claims about alleged demographic changes in the west . In another thread, he suggested to a female poster that in the future you could see a woman become one of six wives.
He also has totally ignored the pro Israel people like Gomez, who don’t use coded language. And again “coded language” is a dumbass new term. But Gomez , Randy Fine and others are wide open about their anti-Muslim views. Randy fine is a sitting Congress person who said he would understand if Americans are afraid of Islam. So it’s not just people running for political office like Gomez who are pro- Israel but it’s pro-Israel politicians in America, who are wide open about their bigotry….
Dunyain has also engaged in this completely weird tactic of asking people what they would do about a so-called “Jewish problem” it’s totally cringe…. Again this is the element of pro war in Gaza people who have to resort to lying about others being anti-Semitic. Apparently utilizing language to rile people up so much that the goal is they get them to say something anti-Jewish. It’s pathetic. And you look at someone like me and others in this thread. I actually appreciate a lot of Jews in Israel. Has Dunyain ever said anything about appreciating a segment of Muslims in Saudi Arabia? Maybe he has I don’t know.
There’s obviously plenty of pro Israel people who are pro Muslim. There’s plenty of pro Palestine people who are pro Jewish. That’s just a healthy way to go at it.
How about pro Israel people in this thread? Are they pro Israel and pro Muslim? Because if they’re not their total hypocrites and have no leg to stand whatsoever. They’re toxic for lying about people being antisemitic. Let’s all hope that they change their ways if they’re one of those people who lie about others being anti-Jewish while simultaneously degrading Islam.
Well, it was fairly normal for that part of the world at that time. And it is still fairly normal in many parts of the world today. In the last year Pakistan displaced around 2 million ethnic Afghanis, bulldozing entire cities, and telling them to high tail it back to Afghanistan. Similar things are happening in Africa, with tremendous levels of violence. The truth is, ther
This point also is constantly brought up by this gentleman. Constantly. Shut up and start talking about something from 1945 or 1950. You gotta imagine if somebody said hey I don’t like Russia invading Ukraine.
“Shutup and start talking about what happened in Africa or in Turkey 100 years ago.”
And of course Dunyain doesn’t respond to the various articles posted in this thread, including from Israeli publications that show that the war in Gaza has seen an unprecedented civilian death toll in terms of modern warfare.
Or this
“Gaza: Number of children killed higher than from four years of world conflict”
That is the rebuttal to the above point that a segment of pro war in Gaza people constantly bring up,
“Israel is unfairly picked on.”
Well no …. in fact, that is why I use words like “pro war in Gaza” Because words matter. And that is something that both the left wing and right wing woke people don’t care about. As there are clearly pro-Israel people who don’t agree with Netanyahu and who don’t support the war in Gaza.
Dunyain is a gotcha type of person. And he is also one of those people who tells someone they are racist because he says so. It is a really unfortunate part of a segment of Western culture in both the left and the right. I believe a minority of people, but yes both the left and the right do this.
“You’re racist because I say so. I don’t give a darn what you say.”
No that’s not how the real world works. And these types of people are being stood up to all over the world.
And of course Dunyain doesn’t respond to the various articles posted in this thread, including from Israeli publications that show that the war in Gaza has seen an unprecedented civilian death toll in terms of modern warfare.
Doubt it, going by sheer numbers. Probably at least 200,000 non-combatants were killed in the Syrian civil war, and the UN has suggested over 300,000. Of course that war did drag on longer. But the percentage of population killed in Gaza is higher.
Doubt it, going by sheer numbers. Probably at least 200,000 non-combatants were killed in the Syrian civil war, and the UN has suggested over 300,000. Of course that war did drag on longer. But the percentage of population killed in Gaza is higher.
His arguments are complete nonsense, and your aren't much better. This is a high intensity flare up of a conflict that has been going on 80 years.
There were a tremendous number of displacements that happened from 1850-1950. This was one of them. Smaller and less violent than most. The only difference is in how this one was handled. Pick any displacement of peoples and if the "solution" was to have the rest of the world subsidize and support the displaced population to refuse to accept history, and live as beggars on the borders of the land they were displaced from, and generationally fight to reclaim the land; the results would be just as poor.
UNRWA needs to be disbanded, and the Palestinian people need to accept 1948 and 1967 happened and it is time to move on. And not be given any option to not accept history.
They can live peacefully in the land they still control, or they can move on. And the rest of the world should facilitate this, and give zero support to any resistance.
--Could you imagine if the rest of the world had decided all the Hindus that had been displaced from Pakistan could and should live in refugee camps on the border, give them no better options, and subsidize them to resist forever and they would pay for it all? And ganged up on Pakistan to force them to allow it? It would be a complete **** show. There are 50 other similar situations that would have gone just as bad if handled the way this conflict has been.
Doubt it, going by sheer numbers. Probably at least 200,000 non-combatants were killed in the Syrian civil war, and the UN has suggested over 300,000. Of course that war did drag on longer. But the percentage of population killed in Gaza is higher.
Well, that is the point. It is about ratio and that is the word I have been consistently using.. It’s not just the source I posted. But it’s a variety of sources from all over the world, including from Jewish journalists inside of Israel, who have used the word “unparalleled” in modern warfare in describing the civilian death ratio in Gaza.
And it’s always meant with a barrage of propaganda and nonsense from the people who support the war in Gaza… they don’t actually address the point head on they just keep repeating themselves Talking about other conflicts.
“Gaza: civilian death toll outpaces other modern wars”
But again for me and plenty of others words matter. Unlike the open anti-Muslims on the pro Netanyahu side… we recognize that this is not about Israeli society, but the Israeli government. Much like a lot of Russians don’t support the war in Ukraine and during the Vietnam era a lot of Americans didn’t support the war in Vietnam.
The Netanyahu government is doing everything It can along with their social media influencers to make this about not only Jews, but also Israel.
“ Israel is defending itself, Israel is going after the terrorist in Gaza”
No … it’s the Netanyahu government. As right before October 7 there were huge protests against Netanyahu in the streets of Israel. And questions about how in the most monitored area of the world October 7 Could’ve even occurred … lots of Israelis have questions about that.
Of course Netanyahu and his cronies want critics within Israel to support the war in Gaza. But it’s not working we’re talking about one of the worst public relations campaigns in modern history when you look at the Netanyahu and whoever supports them on social media..
Glenn is one of many Jewish journalists who is adamantly critical of the war in Gaza…. Showcases what is known to many of us which is that there has been a recent pivot by the folks supporting the genocide in Gaza. They want Americans to stop talking about the Israeli lobby and start demonizing Muslims. In their mind if they can get more Americans and Westerners to demonize Muslims it will take some of the heat off the Gaza genocide…
And that includes not only from social media influencers like Tommy Robinson. Tommy Robinson, this guy who goes around acting like he’s “England first” well he is spending a lot of time in the streets of Israel. What’s going on with that? Well he is propping up the war in Gaza. And he is trying to warn about the dangers of Muslims. Of course, no different than people who warn about the dangers of Jews. Of course such terminology is flat out ridiculous and it is open bigotry. The difference is there is a space within both the left-wing and right wing to support this hatred of Muslims. It doesn’t exist that when it comes to Jews. Hatred of Jews is flat out rejected by overwhelmingly most people on the left and right.
Again it’s Robinson, Valentina Gomez , and setting congressman like Randy Fine who are now openly attacking Muslims. And it’s not the stupid new age fake “coded language”. It is literally anti-Muslim language. Like criticizing random Muslims praying in the streets of Brooklyn. Could you imagine for a moment some sitting politician posting a video of a bunch of Jews in New York City just walking around with their yarmulke on or suits or other Jewish religious attire and making a big deal out of it as if it’s some kind of an invasion.
As always Dunyain simply never actually acknowledges this because of course he has also pedals the anti-Muslim bigotry talking about nonsense things like “oh watch out for demographic changes”. Dunyain is one of the most immature posters in this thread…. Let him say what he wants about previous conflicts, but it is telling that he refuses to even acknowledge or talk about Tommy Robinson, Valentina Gomez, or Randy Fine all of whom have visited Israel and are admired by a portion of the military and politicians in Israel. .. these people and other influencers and politicians who support Israel openly attack Islam. Forget about criticizing Muslim majority governments they go right for Muslims in general.. And of course keep in mind people like Dunyain lie about others being anti-Jewish. It’s an extraordinary thing lie about people being anti-Jewish for simply criticizing a foreign government while simultaneously openly criticizing Muslims.
Your obsession with me is extremely weird. You keep saying things like Israel is the bad guy to most of the world but you really have no clue what you’re talking about. Maybe the bad guy to blue haired fat leftists but for the vast majority of normal tax paying citizens the world moves on. Keep projecting little guy.You tell me I post without substance but every single one o
yeah thats not true at all. Most people across all layers of society have changed their tune and are now aware of at least some of the massive crimes Israel is committing every day.
Just the fact that this simpleton thinks of the conflict in terms of “good” and “bad” guys like it’s one of his marvel movies is very telling. Not that he’s actually offered any intelligent thoughts one way or another.
Good and bad are of course suboptimal and over simplified terms bit in general the ones that oppress others and murder women and children at an industrial scale are the bad ones.
I suspect The day Hamas lays downs their arms and Arab forces come in to take their place and stabilize Gaza there will be mass celebrations in the streets that the nightmare that is Hamas is finally over.
Same thing if/when Hezbollah, Houthis and even the IRI disarm and abdicate.
I always wonder how people come to spout nonsense like this.
Is it the perfect storm of a simple mind and propaganda and you actually believe any of this to be true? Does cognitive dissonance come into play at some point and you know you are writing nonsense at some level?
Its so interesting to me how somebody can be this blinded or have such a diseased mind.
If only other people would stop opposing us and our demands. just accept we are the hegemony and stop resisting and we wouldn't have to murder women and children!
Just give up! People will dance in teh street when you stop making us murder people!
Its a fascinating mindset.
Were you maybe dropped on your head as child?
yeah thats not true at all. Most people across all layers of society have changed their tune and are now aware of at least some of the massive crimes Israel is committing every day.Good and bad are of course suboptimal and over simplified terms bit in general the ones that oppress others and murder women and children at an industrial scale are the bad ones.I always wonder how p
How’s that working out for the Gazans? I’m sure they appreciate all the antisemitic tweets and TikToks, it’s really putting food in their bellies and resisting the oppression.
So the bad guys are the ones who went on a rape murder spree through a music festival? Good we can be on the same page here.
I haven’t been paying much attention but I just saw this article yesterday. So the entire world waking up to the Israeli atrocities and hating Israel is not enough international support. Fascinating.
The world is more or less returning to the pre October 7th status quo where Hamas gets to keep power over their little strip of land and freely oppress the people there while Israel does business with other developed nations.
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/...
In case you’re interested in reading about how Hamas uses the Gazans as human shields and maximizes their deaths for strategic gain.
Maybe the IDF needs to review their practices but Hamas is the main reason Gazans are dying at unprecedented rates. There have been significantly less Palestinians deaths in the West Bank where the IDF also operates. The 2 situations are obviously very different but maybe something to think about.
Since Israel's entire casus belli was supposedly premised on getting rid of Hamas, and yet Israel's chosen tactics appear to have destroyed everything in Gaza except for Hamas, that's not a good look.
Since Israel's entire casus belli was supposedly premised on getting rid of Hamas, and yet Israel's chosen tactics appear to have destroyed everything in Gaza except for Hamas, that's not a good look.
Hamas spent 15+ years and countless millions creating a network of underground tunnels and entrenched itself within the civilian population. They use hospitals, schools and mosques to stages attacks and store arms. Hostages were being kept by school teachers. Hamas fighters dress as civilians when in combat. And still Hamas has been largely dealt with, along with the rest of the axis of resistance.
How do you propose the IDF should have dealt with Hamas?
Since Israel's entire casus belli was supposedly premised on getting rid of Hamas, and yet Israel's chosen tactics appear to have destroyed everything in Gaza except for Hamas, that's not a good look.
and the damage done to sentiment which eventually feeds through to governments is staggering. All that killing, destruction and self-harm for nothing. No 'once and for all', nothing resolved, everything worse. The politics still has to be done
"but you didn't have a plan other than to not do all that killing and destruction before resuming politics"
Not as many as before and that number will hopefully continue to drop.
Hamas spent 15+ years and countless millions creating a network of underground tunnels and entrenched itself within the civilian population. They use hospitals, schools and mosques to stages attacks and store arms. Hostages were being kept by school teachers. Hamas fighters dress as civilians when in combat. And still Hamas has been largely dealt with, along with the rest o
Only thing missing is a reference to ww2 and more specifically Dresden and you've hit all the pro-Israel talking points. Good job.
The world is more or less returning to the pre October 7th status quo where Hamas gets to keep power over their little strip of land and freely oppress the people there while Israel does business with other developed nations.
Still can't admit that perhaps turning Gaza into a giant parking lot wasn't the best way to get rid of Hamas? 2 years of destruction and Hamas is still there, yeah most people would admit that Israel has failed the one thing it claimed it would achieve.
How do you propose the IDF should have dealt with Hamas?
Probably any other way but the last 2 years. Far too much destruction and death of innocent people for the most technologically advanced army.
Not as many as before and that number will hopefully continue to drop. Only thing missing is a reference to ww2 and more specifically Dresden and you've hit all the pro-Israel talking points. Good job.Still can't admit that perhaps turning Gaza into a giant parking lot wasn't the best way to get rid of Hamas? 2 years of destruction and Hamas is still there, yeah most people wou
Anything substantial to add or just sarcasm? Hamas controlled areas of Gaza were turned into booby trapped kill zones with reinforced tunnels running underneath which is a large reason why so many buildings needed to be demolished.
Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and Iran are all still there but their ability to attack Israel has been severely diminished. Completely destroying Hamas was never going to be achieved in 2 years. Maybe to you this looks like a failure. We can chalk it up to differences in perspective.
Only the Israeli talking points were sarcasm. 100% serious when I say that I hope more international condemnation for Israel follows. Pariah state would be the best outcome.
Hamas controlled areas of Gaza were turned into booby trapped kill zones with reinforced tunnels running underneath which is a large reason why so many buildings needed to be demolished.
Sure and now Hamas gets to remain, rebuild and what exactly has been achieved? Hamas is back in control of regions that the IDF left, their police forces are out on the street terrorizing/executing Gazans again and they estimate the total number of fighters to be close to 20k which I believe was close to the estimate before Oct 7 2023.
Maybe they disarm and demilitarize but sure doesn't look like it right now.
Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and Iran are all still there but their ability to attack Israel has been severely diminished. Completely destroying Hamas was never going to be achieved in 2 years. Maybe to you this looks like a failure. We can chalk it up to differences in perspective.
That's fair. I wasn't the one who believed Hamas could be eradicated and this war was essentially fought on the idea of completely destroying Hamas so to now claim this was never going to be achieved in 2 years seems odd.
Hamas is in a pretty tough spot right now with Israel holding all the cards. Turkey and Qatar aren’t in a position to unconditionally support Hamas and oppose the US. The last thing Hamas wants to do is disarm and any further attempts to make them will result in large amounts of civilian causalities. It just is what it is for the moment.
This is why Hamas is currently calling for more international pressure on Israel. They’re backed into a corner with no allies.
Here’s a look at some of the tunnels that Hamas built underneath dense population centers. Remember “All Eyes on Rafah”? Leftists were screeching about the IDF operating in Rafah and lo and behold that’s where they find Sinwar.
Im not a military expert but I don’t see a feasible way to combat these tunnels without removing the people and infrastructure above them. Which is obviously a feature leveraged by Hamas to their advantage.
The sad truth is that completely destroying Hamas would likely take an actual genocide.
Bondi beach shooting live updates: two people in custody as PM urges public to follow police guidance amid ‘shocking and distressing’ scenes
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Speaking to 2GB, the co-chief executive of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry, Alex Ryvchin, said the shooting happened during a Jewish community event on the beach organised for the first night of Hanukkah.
Ryvchin, who was not at the event, said he had spoken to the ECAJ’s director of media, who he alleged had been injured during the incident.
“Hundreds of people were gathered. It’s a family event,” said Ryvchin. He went on:
They heard, like, dozens of popping sounds. And people just started running, running over barricades, grabbing their children. It was mayhem.
I don’t think this was an attack just that happened to occur at Bondi beach. I think this was very deliberate and very targeted.
