Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
I think we can wait and see. Like you've said, everyone has a camera in their pocket these days. With these proposed numbers in a short amount of days there should be plenty of corroborating video to go with the claims and it shouldn't take too long, even with their attempts to shut down all communication.
After 2+ years there is no video to corroborate any of Hamas claims (to this day not a single video of an IDF soldier murdering an unarmed Palestinian civilian in cold blood, no videos of bread line massacres, no videos of quadcopter spraying civilians, etc. etc.), yet most of you accept these claims at face value regardless. Like I said, interesting that in this case you want to see evidence before passing judgment.
That being said, I agree with you that if no evidence ever comes out, the claims should be completely discounted as much as most of the Palestinian claims about IDF bad behavior should be.
I think we can wait and see. Like you've said, everyone has a camera in their pocket these days. With these proposed numbers in a short amount of days there should be plenty of corroborating video to go with the claims and it shouldn't take too long, even with their attempts to shut down all communication.
I mean if they’re killing indiscriminately, it’s perfectly compatible with that data. They could be killing all the people trying to take video of what’s happening. And I don’t know about you, but my first instinct in a life or death situation wouldn’t be to pull out my phone and start recording.
I mean if they’re killing indiscriminately, it’s perfectly compatible with that data. They could be killing all the people trying to take video of what’s happening. And I don’t know about you, but my first instinct in a life or death situation wouldn’t be to pull out my phone and start recording.
Some video would eventually make its way out. Unless they have some technology to wipe out cell phone memory. Really not possible to suppress stuff like that indefinitely, unless they never turn the internet back on.
Same as lots of video of Hamas stealing aid trucks and executing dissidents has eventually emerged, because that actually happened.
And no video of IDF doing similar activity because it didn't actually happen.
I mean if they’re killing indiscriminately, it’s perfectly compatible with that data. They could be killing all the people trying to take video of what’s happening. And I don’t know about you, but my first instinct in a life or death situation wouldn’t be to pull out my phone and start recording.
Some pictures of the aftermath at least I think is realistic.
After 2+ years there is no video to corroborate any of Hamas claims (to this day not a single video of an IDF soldier murdering an unarmed Palestinian civilian in cold blood, no videos of bread line massacres, no videos of quadcopter spraying civilians, etc. etc.), yet most of you accept these claims at face value regardless. Like I said, interesting that in this case you want
I take issue with these claims as I feel they're being used to justify additional strikes on Iran.
Shouldn't be too much to expect some decent evidence before attacking a country.
Some video would eventually make its way out. Unless they have some technology to wipe out cell phone memory. Really not possible to suppress stuff like that indefinitely, unless they never turn the internet back on. Same as lots of video of Hamas stealing aid trucks and executing dissidents has eventually emerged, because that actually happened. And no video of IDF doing si
I suspect there’s not much good data as to what goes on in the sorts of situations that we’re talking about, but happy to be corrected on that point if there’s any research you can point me to. I don’t place much of a credence on what we intuitively think would happen in a mass killing situation with lots of civilians involved. I suspect there will be a good amount of false and true narratives, but what makes some reports more reliable than others is kind of opaque.
I take issue with these claims as I feel they're being used to justify additional strikes on Iran.
Shouldn't be too much to expect some decent evidence before attacking a country.
It is a brutal authoritarian regime that is horribly mismanaged, where the people periodically try to rise up, and the regime cracks down. This has been going on for 20 years. Whether this round 15,000 or 1,500 people were killed doesn't change the moral calculations all that much.
Unfortunately, once Obama and Europe signed off on the JCPOA, and provided the IRGC the resources to build their missile program and Arab paramilitaries; it became -EV for any outside power to directly intervene. As the IRGC has promised to attack the oil resources of all its neighbors, in a "If I am going down, I am taking you all with me" move. Which would be an economic and environmental catastrophe for everyone. But because the regime is religious fanatics with a 7th century worldview, they dont really care about those things anyways. The afterlife is what really matters.
Additionally, many regional powers have incentive to keep the regime in place (but not too strong). Because Iran has such large fossil fuel reserves that are so horribly mismanaged, the price of oil is kept higher than it would be if Iran was managed better, which places like Qatar and Saudi prefer. And obviously China (which purchases 90% of Iranian oil) gets a good discount on the black market, so they are incentivized to keep things as is.
the sheer audacity to call any other country "authoritarian" while the USA incarcerates more people by a mile and has killed 10s of millions since its inception. most propagandized people in history.
Iran controls all of the media and kills any dissidents with no hesitation. Do the hyper leftists expect there to be Project X style footage coming out of Iran?
The point to stop taking these individuals (Victor, 5south etc) seriously has come and gone long ago.
For the terminally ill, imagine the Netanyahu regime but 100 times more brutal, less regard for human life and suffering and infinitely more religious indoctrination. Now you have the Iranian regime.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt this is true (which is a giant if), what do you think every other developed nations do when they confiscate black market perishable food?
They destroy it of course.
This is complete bad faith nonsense propaganda.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt this is true (which is a giant if), what do you think every other developed nations do when they confiscate black market perishable food?
They destroy it of course.
This is complete bad faith nonsense propaganda.
Grok said it’s not AI. And your hasbara type response ain’t cutting it
The amount of time you say “bad faith” for somebody who has not acknowledged congressman Randy Fine or Valentina Gomez for open racism. Well it is what it is. Maybe in this next post you will finally say something about them but considering your track record chances are low.
Glenn Greenwald an example of based journalistic integrity.
ADL Demands Censorship of Tucker, Hasan Piker, Nick Fuentes and More
As Glenn points out it is not about racism. It is about criticism of Israel. You see the ADL criticizing Fuentes who is a bigot but praising anti Muslim bigots simply bc they defend the government of Israel. Of course the ADL also is attempting to smear people who are openly saying nice things about Jews but criticizing the government of Israel. And the American people see right through their propaganda. That is why when you look at various articles and videos on the ADL there is massive criticism of the ADL from both the left and right wing.
Of course another outlet that supports the genocide in Gaza is an organization called stop antisemitism. They have on the list of antisemite of the year Miss Rachel a YouTuber who has a children’s show who dared to give airtime to Palestinian children who lost legs due to the Israeli genocide in Gaza.
Guess who’s not on “stop Antisemitism” list for antisemite of the year….Actual Nazis like actual people who don’t like Jews. The people included on the list are very well-known journalists who have large followings and are critical of the foreign government of Israel. “Stop antisemitism” is a bad group and like much of the pro Netanyahu lobby they are engaging in politics trying to destroy people’s lives for criticizing a foreign government. And it’s so wide open and obvious. It takes away from actual anti racist groups who truly want to combat racism.
It is a brutal authoritarian regime that is horribly mismanaged, where the people periodically try to rise up, and the regime cracks down. This has been going on for 20 years. Whether this round 15,000 or 1,500 people were killed doesn't change the moral calculations all that much.Unfortunately, once Obama and Europe signed off on the JCPOA, and provided the IRGC the resource
Yes, that's all fine. My point is I don't like when crazy, unverified numbers like 15k dead in a day or two with child soldiers putting in work being used as a reason as now we have to step in and do something when the evidence is trust me bro.
Can't even give us a power point on mobile wmd labs or something?
Yes, that's all fine. My point is I don't like when crazy, unverified numbers like 15k dead in a day or two with child soldiers putting in work being used as a reason as now we have to step in and do something when the evidence is trust me bro.
Can't even give us a power point on mobile wmd labs or something?
Yes, heaven forbid unverified propaganda makes its way into this thread. We have done such a good job keeping such content out of this thread the last 2 years.
Yes, heaven forbid unverified propaganda makes its way into this thread. We have done such a good job keeping such content out of this thread the last 2 years.
Obviously I don't care about this thread, it's people like dbf that hear stuff like it and then get behind whatever new military adventure the people are pushing it are for.
Addressing something that comes up like clockwork:
“Why aren’t the Iranian activists demonstrating against Trump’s ICE raids?”
We owe persecuted dissidents around the world our solidarity. But we, like the Iranians, should focus first on the crimes our own government is committing.
Nathan J. Robinson
And like clockwork I will point out Islamist and progressive "students" around the world, mostly from nations that dont support Israel at all, are having similar protests with similar arguments*.
If this explanation was correct, we would be seeing a differential response correlating with domestic govt. support of Israel. And we dont see that at all.
--I would offer a more robust explanation is that progressives and Islamists are generally sympathetic to the ideology of third worldism (The general idea that the Western world is generally morally corrupt, and opposing it is morally righteous). And the IRGC is an important avatar of this ideology, so are treated with kid gloves.
*Insomuch as the domestic authorities let them protest at all.
Discussions are reportedly under way within Donald Trump’s administration about the US possibly granting asylum to Jewish people from the UK, according to the Telegraph, citing the US president’s personal lawyer.
Trump lawyer Robert Garson told the newspaper that he has held conversations with the US state department about offering refuge to British Jews who are leaving the UK citing rising antisemitism.
The White House did not immediately respond to a request for comment from the Guardian.
Garson, 49, said he felt the UK was “no longer a safe place for Jews”. He added that recent events – namely an Islamist attack on a synagogue in Manchester and what he described as widespread antisemitism following the Hamas attack on Israel on 7 October 2023 – had led him to believe that British Jews should be given the option of sanctuary in the US.
Some supporters of Israel in the UK cast mass demonstrations there against the Israeli response to the 2023 attack, in which tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians were killed in Gaza, as motivated by antisemitism.
In a US television interview in late 2023, Garson himself called protesters in New York and Los Angeles who opposed the Israeli response “marauding mobs” and accused them of “masquerading as protesters” to shout “antisemitic chants baying for Jewish blood”.
In the new interview with the Telegraph, Garson said he could see “no future” for Jews in the UK and placed much of the responsibility on to British prime minister Keir Starmer, accusing him of allowing antisemitism to grow.
Garson, a former British barrister who practiced in London before relocating to the US in 2008, told the Telegraph: “The UK is no longer a safe place for Jews. I have spoken to the state department as to whether the president should be offering British Jews asylum in the US.”
He went on to say that such a proposition is attractive because “it is a highly educated community”. “It is a populous that speaks English natively, that is educated and doesn’t have a high proportion of criminals,” Garson said.
He added: “When I look at what is going on with Jews in Britain, and when I look at the changing demographics, I don’t believe – and I have discussed this with people in the Trump administration – that there is a future for Jews in the United Kingdom.
I think it is cheap politics to put the blame on Starmer. But demographics is destiny, and directionally I agree Jews in Britain have little future. And I would be ok offering asylum.
For good or bad, Britain has allowed unchecked immigration from extremely antisemitic populations, and been accommodating towards them. Even if a future British govt changed tacts, it is probably already too late. And is only going to get worse.
Now if a British Jew decided they wanted to stay for whatever reason, and just live with always having to have high security, be extremely vigilant of your surroundings, and constant abuse; then I wish them the best. But I have no problem offering a choice.
