Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
The irony is that none of the Arab countries in the region want this. Because everyone (rightly IMO) assumes it would turn into Lebanon levels of dysfunction and sectarian violence, in one of the most militarily powerful nations in the world. Which is terrifying if you are in the region.
Could you imagine the level of mischief and chaos the IRGC could impose on the region if they were able to control Israel through Palestinian militias like they have been doing in Lebanon?
I mean, its still Zionism. its still foreign invaders benefiting from mass murder and theft due to their Jewishness.
Forgotten history: the Jewish labor Bund opposed Zionism from 1897.
For generations, the world has been told that Zionism was the inevitable answer to European anti-Semitism — the only path available to a persecuted people facing exclusion, pogroms and genocide. But history tells a far more complicated story.
In a wide-ranging conversation on Palestine Deep Dive, Palestinian historian Hazem Jamjoum and writer Molly Crabapple revisit the forgotten legacy of the Jewish Labor Bund, a mass socialist movement that rejected both assimilation and Zionism. Founded in the same year as the Zionist movement, the Bund argued that oppression should be fought where it exists — not escaped by creating a new state at another people’s expense.
lol
Forgotten history: the Jewish labor Bund opposed Zionism from 1897.
The Bundists were all killed. They lost their fight against oppression, completely and irrevocably.
Seems to be an argument for Zionism.
The Bundists were all killed. They lost their fight against oppression, completely and irrevocably.
Seems to be an argument for Zionism.
The Nazis killed the Bundists therefore they were wrong is quite a take. I guess if the Nazis had killed all the Jews that would have been an argument against Judaism?
its really weird for this Crabapple person to bring up an extinct sect of anti-Zionists right now. like, thats the whole point. they are gone. no one is opposing Israel in the name of Judaism right now.
so, why is she glorifying a 100 year old movement that has been thoroughly eschewed by modern Jews?
the article says they "fought" the Zionists but in the article there are no battles nor can I find any on wikipedia.
its really weird for this Crabapple person to bring up an extinct sect of anti-Zionists right now. like, thats the whole point. they are gone. no one is opposing Israel in the name of Judaism right now. so, why is she glorifying a 100 year old movement that has been thoroughly eschewed by modern Jews?the article says they "fought" the Zionists but in the article there are n
from what I could find online, the ideology is about as active now as it was in 1947. they were mostly centered in Eastern Europe so not that much they could do except tell people not to go, which seems like it’s exactly what you would want them to do? did you want them to take a boat to Israel and kill some Zionists?
The Nazis killed the Bundists therefore they were wrong is quite a take. I guess if the Nazis had killed all the Jews that would have been an argument against Judaism?
notably, the Nazis did not kill all of the Zionists. they let many leave to slaughter natives and steal land. one such incident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kastner_tr...
seems that the moral of the story is to collaborate with the genociders and sell out your own people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Ag...
the Shia Men of God do not seem to have such issues in the face of their genocidal pedophile rapists.
from what I could find online, the ideology is about as active now as it was in 1947. they were mostly centered in Eastern Europe so not that much they could do except tell people not to go, which seems like it’s exactly what you would want them to do? did you want them to take a boat to Israel and kill some Zionists?
yes that is one thing they could do.
also, they could go to South Lebanon and shelter children marked for murder. they could fund starving families in Gaza. they could organize and fund Jews to leave Israel. they could take over their synagogues and Jewish institutions and expel the Zionists.
yes that is one thing they could do.
also, they could go to South Lebanon and shelter children marked for murder. they could fund starving families in Gaza. they could organize and fund Jews to leave Israel. they could take over their synagogues and Jewish institutions and expel the Zionists.
now that I have a baseline of what the moral obligation is for anti-zionist jews, what’s your own moral obligation? for jews it’s apparently “go to South Lebanon and get bombed in an active war zone” lmao
now that I have a baseline of what the moral obligation is for anti-zionist jews, what’s your own moral obligation? for jews it’s apparently “go to South Lebanon and get bombed in an active war zone” lmao
many Euros risked their lives to save Jews during WW2. its weird that during a genocide perpetrated by Jews, in the name of Jews, and supported by 99% of Jewish organizations, you dont think that any of them should rise to a similar level. but I think we know why that is.
many Euros risked their lives to save Jews during WW2. its weird that during a genocide perpetrated by Jews, in the name of Jews, and supported by 99% of Jewish organizations, you dont think that any of them should rise to a similar level. but I think we know why that is.
The reason that is would be that I don’t see a compelling reason why they should. In fact the comparison is bad because Euros risked their lives sure, but they didn’t have to go anywhere to do it, and they had a tangible outcome that could be attached to risking their life. Eg each day hiding a Jew or each time smuggling a Jew was a Jew saved at that day or that time. You’re suggesting they go commit suicide in an active war zone with no guarantee it will actually be effective at stopping anything.
Is there even any argument that they should do that either from a deontic, utilitarian, or other theory of normativity? Because it sounds more like a virtue signal.
It also seems that there is at least a compelling argument to you that this is being done in the name of the West and with the support of 99% of Western institutions. Why doesn’t that give you a symmetrical moral duty if that does incur a moral duty when those conditions are met?
why is she glorifying a 100 year old movement that has been thoroughly eschewed by modern Jews?
To reopen a path for Jewish thought, away from Israel. Now is certainly the moment. That's a positive contribution. Wouldn't you agree that anything that undermines the hasbara is good?
the article says they "fought" the Zionists but in the article there are no battles nor can I find any on wikipedia.
Guess you'll have to get the book. But anyway, fought can also mean: competed with Zionists for influence in the ghettos.
they could go to South Lebanon and shelter children marked for murder. they could fund starving families in Gaza. they could organize and fund Jews to leave Israel. they could take over their synagogues and Jewish institutions and expel the Zionists.
Or they could struggle against the hasbara here in the U.S. -- a country essential for shielding the genocide.
Wherever people choose to make a contribution -- that should be welcomed. That's what's tactically sound.
The reason that is would be that I don’t see a compelling reason why they should. In fact the comparison is bad because Euros risked their lives sure, but they didn’t have to go anywhere to do it, and they had a tangible outcome that could be attached to risking their life. Eg each day hiding a Jew or each time smuggling a Jew was a Jew saved at that day or that time. You’re su
Victor is a keyboard warrior. His moral obligation to the cause is limited to ranting about the Epstein/Pedophile/Zionists to a few dozen folks on an antiquated poker website.
The reason that is would be that I don’t see a compelling reason why they should. In fact the comparison is bad because Euros risked their lives sure, but they didn’t have to go anywhere to do it, and they had a tangible outcome that could be attached to risking their life. Eg each day hiding a Jew or each time smuggling a Jew was a Jew saved at that day or that time. You’re su
do you think I absolve the West? havent you heard me say the entire populace of the West is complicit, benefits, and doesnt do enough? say the same about Jews and I get pushback though.
You’re suggesting they go commit suicide in an active war zone with no guarantee it will actually be effective at stopping anything.
I made 3 suggestions that did not involve going to a genocide zone. donate to families being actively genocided, fund reverse colonization for settler Jews to leave Occupied Palestine, take over their synogogues and institutions and make them anti-Zionist. unsurprisingly you disingenuously focus on the most extreme.
do you think I absolve the West? havent you heard me say the entire populace of the West is complicit, benefits, and doesnt do enough? say the same about Jews and I get pushback though. I made 3 suggestions that did not involve going to a genocide zone. donate to families being actively genocided, fund reverse colonization for settler Jews to leave Occupied Palestine, take
Which of those three things (if any) are you personally doing?
why would I fund reverse colonization or engage with a synagogue? I am not "chosen."
obv I donate, as Ive mentioned many times. not that you would believe me.
but why does it matter what I do? you guys always do this. you act like if I am not leading and winning the revolution that my points arent valid. its just lazy.
why would I fund reverse colonization or engage with a synagogue? I am not "chosen."
obv I donate, as Ive mentioned many times. not that you would believe me.
I do believe you. I personally think you sincerely believe everything you say in this forum.
but why does it matter what I do? you guys always do this. you act like if I am not leading and winning the revolution that my points arent valid. its just lazy.
It 'matters' in the sense that it shows that you are willing to do more than just rant and rave about the issue.
A man of words and not of deeds,
Is like a garden full of weeds.
(Or something like that.)
The Old Testament likely records traditions of human sacrifices commanded by God, so I don’t think that’s the case at all. I’m not into any of the religions of the book. Just seems like the only ones we’re allowed to criticize safely are Christian sects.
do you think I absolve the West? havent you heard me say the entire populace of the West is complicit, benefits, and doesnt do enough? say the same about Jews and I get pushback though.
I have pushed back on anti-Western talking points as well, but I don’t actually think you place the same burden on Westerners. Seems like the burden really is on the Jews.
But they are both ridiculous.
I made 3 suggestions that did not involve going to a genocide zone. donate to families being actively genocided, fund reverse colonization for settler Jews to leave Occupied Palestine, take over their synogogues and institutions and make them anti-Zionist. unsurprisingly you disingenuously focus on the most extreme.
Well the last two have their own issues but I focused on the most extreme one because you offered it up. Are you not standing by that one?
Just to be clear, when Victor says donate to families being actively genocided, he really means giving money to Bangladeshi scammers.
