Ukraine-Russia War Take 2

some european money is structured as a loan

U.S. siding with your best friend Putin .
How can the U.S. still being bad -> Ukraine war ending too ..

like I said all along, the US did not have Ukraine's best interests at heart and all the meddling would hurt them. and I said all along that the Ukrainian comprador ruling class cozying up to the US was disastrous for the people of Ukraine. but tbh, I didnt think it would end up this badly.

as usual, the tankies were correct on this one. it was always going to end like this.

So you were against at both side , even triple ?
Putin didn’t had Ukraine interest ( obviously).
USA didn’t either
And zelensky didn’t either.
Who’s left to lead them ?

Poor them .
You sure didn’t sound like that previously…

Thats bc you don't read well.bc you desperately wanted to believe that I love Putin or some nonsense. I've maintained this was a disaster for the Ukrainian people and much of the fault lies with the US.

Zelensky refused to abide by the Minsk accords. Then, almost exactly 3 years ago, before Russia invaded (which was 3 years ago today), Zelensky broke the ceasefire by massively shelling the Donbas. Obviously the U.S. told him to do that (I cannot support that with any evidence but I don't have any evidence Shaquille O'Neal currently weighs greater than 100 lbs . either) and that is really what started the escalation.

And what now? Gonna implement the same Minsk accords but now you've lost territory and you will owe the U.S. all your minerals? lol

Ukraine isn't even present in negotiations to end a war in which they have contributed rivers of blood. At some point the NATO membership committee had to be like look, given how easily these corrupt people are manipulated, we can't let them in. In the international Player's Ball of geopolitics, NATO are pimps and Ukraine is a ho.

This is the most insane conspiracy-level drivel I have ever read in this forum.

There is no other reasonable comparison than repeating WW2 Nazi propaganda.

I'm ashamed that this forum has come to this.

this isnt true but most important of all donbas is ukraine and the only reason there's ever been any fighting there is russia invaded. none of it should have existed because russia should never have invaded

Says it all

Nazi propaganda eh?

Of course you can’t ….

Ps: Was Zelenskyy there when Putin invade Crimea ? Oops …

If nato such a big deal , you should suspect that Finland and Sweden will be invaded too right ?
U.S. forced them after all o0 , Not Putin actions ….

+1

I think everyone underestimated the lengths Putin would go to keep Ukraine within Russia's sphere of influence. Obviously if Russia just lets Ukraine go, the people of Ukraine would have benefited greatly; as being part of the Western world is far superior to the Russian sphere (compare Ukraine and Poland by pretty much any metric to see this).

But as Obama famously said, Ukraine is more important to Putin than it is to the West. And Putin is clearly willing to put the Russian nation and people under tremendous hardship to fight for control of Ukraine, and the Western world isn't willing to go to such lengths, so it is what it is.

As to your last point, unlike you I am old enough to remember when most pundits thought Ukraine would quickly fold and Zelensky would go into exile, and Ukraine would just become a Russian puppet state like Belarus. Russia being as incompetent military as it was in the initial invasion and Ukraine putting up such a strong fight to the point the West felt obligated to support them was not something very many people predicted.

Is there a specific claim you take issue with? As far as the U.S. telling Zelensky to start shelling the **** out of the Donbas I say that's my speculation. As far as Ukraine doing the shelling I can prove that easily, but you have Google so that shouldn't be a point of disagreement. That shelling was, as a point of indisputable fact, a major escalation. Russia responded with its invasion. There was a long chain of causes of this war. It goes back almost 30 years really to the Clinton administration.

Did any of you really think, upon reflection as adults, that the U.S. really wanted to integrate Russia into the "free world" as a competitor after all we went through to demolish them? NATO encroachment was always the plan.

I've got conspiracy theories if you want to read them. I think that what the neocons really wanted, in addition feeding the war weapons makers and to separating Europe from Russia and opening up U.S. energy markets to Russia, was the Ukrainian people. They wanted to rebuild Ukraine into some kind of technocratic nightmare. That's why Europe was so into this. Don't you ever wonder why Germany is going so hard in the paint on this despite what the people of Germany want? They didn't sacrifice that pipeline and that cheap gas because they think Ukraine deserves to be a NATO member. They are sacrificing because ultimately they, and Europe, want Ukrainian labor. The elites of Europe are tired of the vacations and the healthcare and the less than maximum profits. They want cheap labor next door. They want Ukrainians working in call centers for peanuts. They want infrastructure projects too. You can read this stuff. The plans for the new Ukraine are insane. But I suppose if I'm citing published plans it's not so much conspiracy theory as conspiracy fact.

You'd have to provide some kind of timeline for this to possibly make sense. Kiev started shelling ethnic Russians in the Donbas while pursuing NATO membership, while having their military trained by NATO, while getting weapons from NATO, while scuttling the Minsk agreements. Ukraine broke the ceasefire. That is a fact.

Of course the part of this you are conveniently ignoring is that being absorbed into the West is exactly what the (Western) Ukrainian people wanted to. As being in the Western sphere (even in a lower tier than Germany and Britain) is still vastly superior than being in Russia's sphere of influence. As is clearly evidence by everyone in Eastern Europe is losing their **** at concern the US is going to abandon them to Putin, and turn their nations into shitholes like Belarus.

He’s allowed to be wrong. It makes moderation particularly tricky when the president is spreading misinformation that lends credibility to conspiracy

I think they wanted to turn Russia into a gas station in the East. John Mccain's quote was aspirational and not descriptive. they wanted to fracture the country and infuse Western capital to take over the industry and resources. they underestimated how strong Russia was in terms of weaponry, resource,s production, economy, and unity.

its the typical Imperial playbook and Russia was the holy grail. it turns out Russia was lot harder to crack than Syria and Iraq.

Nah. The hope was that Russia would basically become Canada. A second tier Western nation with a high standard of living that provides natural resources to the great powers of the west. But Putin wanted Russia to remain a great power, so here we are.

And trump never believed ukrayne was really a Independent country .
He wrote about it .
For Putin , invading Ukraine was like invading Chechnya imo ….

the timeline is this:

russia invades donbas in 2014, ukraine fights back trying to stop the invasion, idiots on the internet claim ukraine is shelling donbas

and the russians never upheld a ceasefire or followed the minsk agreements. the agreement was for some degree of autonomy within ukraine. not for russia to install puppet goverments and hold fake elections

the other side of this is that ukrainians care a lot more about not being ruled by russian installed puppet regimes the next 100 years than anyone else cares about this. not having your country turn into belarus is more motivation than both russia and the west

at what point in the timeline did the far right Ukrainians burn dozens of people alive in the trade union in Odessa?

This is very true. Truthfully, without this western nations would have just shrugged their shoulders and given up Ukraine a long time ago.

But seeing how hard Ukrainians are fighting not to become Belarus is inspiring (up to a point).

Trump of course being a narcissist isn’t inspired at all. He is purely transactional and just views the conflict in terms of “let’s make a deal” where I get all the credit and doesn’t really care about any right or wrong.

It's been long said by Russia and well understood by the U.S. that Ukraine membership in NATO was a red line. We have the Monroe Doctrine. We wouldn't let a military alliance conceived and dedicated to our destruction to set up a base on the Yucatan. It's so stupid to expect or demand that Russian allow something similar. It's so stupid that it's not really a thing. It's a lie that anyone believes that was reasonable. I'm saying to you that you do not believe that it is right for NATO to expand into Ukraine according to any consistent notion of fairness or practicality. I refuse to believe so many could be so naive.

And what is even more perplexing is people who have nothing at stake being so intentionally naive. Are you personally going to get contracts to set up the infrastructure for Germany to receive natural gas from here? Are you printing money at Raytheon? Why would you look at this situation, see these jackbooted thugs in the U.S. orchestrate the overthrow an democratically elected government Ukraine in order to expand NATO to Russia's doorstep, increasing antagonisms day by day, leveling economic sanctions against Russia, and conclude that is all right and just and if Russia protects itself they are evil incarnate? You have no incentive to believe a bunch of plain lies, do you? I assume you aren't fond of the types of people we've armed in this war. I call them neo Nazis because that's what they are but I think even you, who are so far gone, have to admit that at a minimum they are extreme rightwing violent ethnic nationalists. You want your tax dollars used to give people like that billions in high tech weaponry? This is a recipe for blowback.

The only incentive I can assign to you is that you want to be on the winning side. And that's why this is so sweet what is happening now. It's so sweet because all of you who suspend reality in service of a pro war narrative are now on the losing side. Your side lost. Your propaganda lost. You've lost the debate AND you've lost your morality. The people in power are saying Zelensky started the war. That's not quite accurate, not the whole picture as the symbol on Zelensky's military costume might as well be a chess pawn, but it's the narrative which has force. All the lying on your side did was get a million people killed for nothing.

We've seen lots of concessions to the Trump regime in this immediate post election frenzy. Facebook has conceded. The media is conceding to Trump. Some Democrats are, now that it is too late, conceding that Palestinians are humans.

In that spirit of concessions, can some of you concede something to objective reality? Can you concede that there is a deeply ramified Neo Nazi strain in current leadership of Ukraine and that the militias of Ukraine were formed as neo Nazi units and maintain that allegiance to ethno-supremacist fascist nationalism today?

Now that Trump has won and is destroying the country there is no need to keep the denials going. We are going to have to figure out what to do about these people and all the weapons they now have. Pretending they are boy scouts isn't going to help that.