Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack where hundreds of spam threads were created. In the case where, for example, I see a single spam thread and delete it, that is called a soft delete, and mods can still see them but forum members cannot. Those deletion can be undone.
When a massive attack hits with hundreds of threads, an admin uses a different procedure where the hundreds of spam threads are merged and then hard deleted, where the threads are gone, and no note is left behind. As I have mentioned with my own experience of just soft deleting a large number of posts, sometimes a post or thread gets checked or merged accidentally and is deleted by mistake. Dealing with hundreds of spam threads takes a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
It appears that our Ukraine thread may have gotten caught up in that recent net of spam threads. If so, it is likely gone for good. I cant say this for sure, and am awaiting comments from admins on this issue. Yes, this sucks. And hopefully there was some other software glitch that caused the disappearance, and we may recover it in the future.
But in the meantime, I have created this new Ukraine-Russia War thread to enable the conversation to continue. Obviously continuity with earlier discussions will be lost. There is no way around that. So as best as possible, let's pick up the conversation with recent events and go from there.
If you have any questions about this, please post them in the mod thread, not here. Let's keep this thread going with posts about the war, not the disappearance of the old thread.
Thanks.
We've seen lots of concessions to the Trump regime in this immediate post election frenzy. Facebook has conceded. The media is conceding to Trump. Some Democrats are, now that it is too late, conceding that Palestinians are humans.
In that spirit of concessions, can some of you concede something to objective reality? Can you concede that there is a deeply ramified Neo Nazi strain in current leadership of Ukraine and that the militias of Ukraine were formed as neo Nazi units and maintain that alle
It's been long said by Russia and well understood by the U.S. that Ukraine membership in NATO was a red line. We have the Monroe Doctrine. We wouldn't let a military alliance conceived and dedicated to our destruction to set up a base on the Yucatan. It's so stupid to expect or demand that Russian allow something similar. It's so stupid that it's not really a thing. It's a lie that anyone believes that was reasonable. I'm saying to you that you do not believe that it is right for NATO to expand
Finland , Estonia , Latvia isn’t at Russia doorstep while being nato members ?
Nato is has a much reason has trump fentanyl or illegals immigration from Canada to justify tariffs .
It’s hor$e$h!t .
Putin never accepted Ukraine was a independent country .
Ps: your assumptions (false obviously ) is so funny about me with ukrayne .
Fwiw isn’t sweet at all for for me , trump will handed over ukrayne on a platter for Putin ….that isn’t great at all .
I just believe democracy should be defended vs a dictatorship.
For you to claim ukrayne is not a legitimate democracy while not denouncing Russia fake democracy is hilarious .
Zelensky is far more legit then Putin despite any faults you can attribute to both of them .
He’s allowed to be wrong. It makes moderation particularly tricky when the president is spreading misinformation that lends credibility to conspiracy
How is that tricky? That doesn't justify posting complete garbage. Be an adult. It's just an excuse to not to do anything. The US president talking garbage doesn't justify other garbage.
You're hiding behind freedom of speech and actively making a world a worse place by allowing people to spread misinformation. The opinion itself is worthless.
Why would I ever even respond to anyone else ITT? This is like a firehose of falsehood. Whatever I say there will be some twitter image or some gotcha to wiggle out. This is a right-wing hellhole forum actively making a world a worse place.
How is that tricky? That doesn't justify posting complete garbage. Be an adult. It's just an excuse to not to do anything. The US president talking garbage doesn't justify other garbage.
You're hiding behind freedom of speech and actively making a world a worse place by allowing people to spread misinformation. The opinion itself is worthless.
Why would I ever even respond to anyone else ITT? This is like a firehose of falsehood. Whatever I say there will be some twitter image or some gotcha to wi
FWIW The people in this forum spreading what you consider misinformation mostly self identify as leftists, and their views definitely generally align with leftism.
Being pro Putin and anti Israel are 2 of the few things the far right and far left can align on.
How is that tricky? That doesn't justify posting complete garbage. Be an adult. It's just an excuse to not to do anything. The US president talking garbage doesn't justify other garbage.
You're hiding behind freedom of speech and actively making a world a worse place by allowing people to spread misinformation. The opinion itself is worthless.
Why would I ever even respond to anyone else ITT? This is like a firehose of falsehood. Whatever I say there will be some twitter image or some gotcha to wi
Welcome to 2025.
I generally agree that spreading misinformation makes the world a worse place.
He’s allowed to be wrong. It makes moderation particularly tricky when the president is spreading misinformation that lends credibility to conspiracy
What misinformation am I spreading? There are respected organizations which monitored the shelling of the Donbas less than a week before Russia escalated in turn. I could cite them but I figure you all know how to use Google.
Or are you saying my facts are correct but what I am making of them isn't valid? There are many respected scholars who are saying the same thing more or less, scholars with particular knowledge of the history of the conflict and of our relations with Russia generally. That's who I'm citing. You are citing people who have no credibility or any publications on these matters before 2020, people who just show up on Sunday morning news shows and just tell lies without any pushback.
I suppose you can keep arguing by labeling. I'm sure I can't convince you of how weak that is.
FWIW The people in this forum spreading what you consider misinformation mostly self identify as leftists, and their views definitely generally align with leftism.
Being pro Putin and anti Israel are 2 of the few things the far right and far left can align on.
The Left isn't pro Putin. The Left is anti-war.
The Left isn't anti Israel, per say. It's anti ethnic cleansing and anti-genocide, two crimes of which Israel has been credibly accused by foremost legal scholars and jurists. There is an arrest warrant for Netnyahoo. There is no longer any weight to the argument that criticizing Israel is an extremist position. When you're on the side of the criminal justice system you're hardly an extremist.
Since when so much hate towards Belarus? This is Minsk in 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvPzL0dl...
Cost of living comparison:
Vilnius vs Minsk https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/co...
Warsaw vs Minsk https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/co...
Belarus is as much a puppet state to Russia, as Canada to USA (or some Lithuania/Poland). Count military influence of USA in those countries and Russian military influence in Belarus.
Also, Belarus had a sovereign response to COVID (no restrictions/quarantines like in Sweden) that was different from Russia
What does Victor feel right now after that UN vote with Israel siding with the US and Russia?
Since when so much hate towards Belarus? This is Minsk in 2024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvPzL0dl...
Belarus =/= Minsk. Would you claim that Moscow was indicative of average living standards in Russia?
What does Victor feel right now after that UN vote with Israel siding with the US and Russia?
why would I care? ofc this shows that the USA and the Ukrainian ruling class didnt care about the country or its people at all, which is what I said all along. this wasnt some fight for freedom and democracy.
anyway, maybe it will hasten the end of this war that has forcibly sacrificed 100s of thousands of slave soldiers.
this guy says it a lot better than me.
why would I care? ofc this shows that the USA and the Ukrainian ruling class didnt care about the country or its people at all, which is what I said all along. this wasnt some fight for freedom and democracy.
anyway, maybe it will hasten the end of this war that has forcibly sacrificed 100s of thousands of slave soldiers.
this guy says it a lot better than me.
Lol at that article
I do think its funny that this thread is acting like Ukraine could join NATO when Biden straight up told Zelensky they couldnt.
The U.S. orchestrated the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Ukraine in 2014, enlisting many neo Nazi and other extremist rightwing groups in the effort. That is an incontrovertible fact. Some people argue that it was justified because that elected government was siding with Russia when the population wanted to side with The West. The documented history is that Ukraine weighed both options and Russia's deal was sweeter. The West wanted to impose massive austerity. The West was basically saying yeah join the family but right off know you are the black sheep and you have to pay to be friends with us. There was a perfectly reasonable economic case to side with Russia over being the West's whipping boy.
But whether or not the public wanted this or that, a small foreign policy discrepancy between public opinion and government policy is never considered justification for the overthrow of an elected government by force. You just wait for the next election and vote in people you agree with. But this is what pro war people will sit here and tell you, that it was ok to overthrow the elected government of Ukraine because it chose Russia as its economic partner. They don't seem to realize how insanely deviant that is from the well established practices of democracy, so deviant as to be another form of government entirely and not at all democracy.
Trump called Zelensky a dictator. That's more correct than incorrect. Not only was Zelensky chosen by the U.S., not organically by Ukrainians on the heels of said violent coup and he has engaged in brutal repression of any political dissent, distinctly anti-democratic practices including jailing dissidents (some have been killed) and banning media which voices opposition to the war.
Deuces in 2014 the west installed Poroshenko not Zelensky.
The comedian, most famous before the war for his perfomance playing the piano with his dick on national television, was chosen by the Ukrainian people in a chaotic 2019 election that saw a huge open field and no first round winner.
He won with insane margins in the second round against the guy we had installed previously (Poroshenko).
Kind absurd calling him a dictator
Not true. In fact I'm one of a small percentage of OG die hard fan boys of democracy. I love it so much that I hope one day to see it implemented in the workplace. I figure most of the places people work are basically tyrannies. If you work 40 hours a week you are effectively living in a tyranny for a good part of your life. This doesn't need to be the case. We could craft legislation making more institutions more democratic. Only then will we have actual democracy and the only way we can achieve that is through a democratic superstructure which can, by force, impose democracy into whole classes of institutions.
In other news, everyone is outraged at Trump for "giving in" to Putin in Ukraine. And maybe he is to an extent.
But the world is a big place, and part of the negotiations are encouraging Russia to disengage from the IRGC and the Shiite axis in the ME, and aligning with a moderate Sunni axis with normalized relations with Israel.
Maybe it will happen, maybe it wont.
But from a grand geopolitical perspective, if the IRGC and the Shiite terror axis that has destabilized the ME can be isolated and defeated, it might be worth "giving in" at least Eastern Ukraine to Russia (which Russia occupies anyways, so there isn't a whole lot to do regardless).
In other news, everyone is outraged at Trump for "giving in" to Putin in Ukraine. And maybe he is to an extent.
But the world is a big place, and part of the negotiations are encouraging Russia to disengage from the IRGC and the Shiite axis in the ME, and aligning with a moderate Sunni axis with normalized relations with Israel.
Maybe it will happen, maybe it wont.
But from a grand geopolitical perspective, if the IRGC and the Shiite terror axis that has destabilized the ME can be isolated and
Yeah, that's some tough negotiations.
Deuces in 2014 the west installed Poroshenko not Zelensky.
The comedian, most famous before the war for his perfomance playing the piano with his dick on national television, was chosen by the Ukrainian people in a chaotic 2019 election that saw a huge open field and no first round winner.
He won with insane margins in the second round against the guy we had installed previously (Poroshenko).
Kind absurd calling him a dictator
Yeah and the American people chose to choose between Kamala and Trump, so loved they are, and no undue influence from any covert undemocratic sources had anything to do with filling the slate of possible choices. Sure. Ok.
Zelensky won a post coup election in conditions not resembling democracy. And he won running on a peace platform. Since he immediately betrayed that (key moment there seems to be John Brennan paying him a visit) then, by your logic, he should have been deposed in a coup. That's the logic of calling the 2014 coup democracy: if you disagree with what your government is doing you have the right to violently overthrow it and that's democracy.
Currently a majority of Ukrainians want the war to end. But that's like the 80th down consideration anyone is discussing because all the power brokers are so in love with democracy.
Trump can always break out the truth and use as a cudgel against his political enemies, or he can make stuff up. He is using the truth here, but long term I don't trust it. He could be planning some kind of nationalist axis to be supported by these Nazis in Ukraine who possess all these weapons we've sent them. The neo nazi militias running the war will have the impulse to undermine any peace agreement reached. They might try to kill Zelensky if he agrees to anything. Keeping him on the outside is the best thing for his safety, but I wouldn't want to be in his shoes at the moment.
But if Trump and the fascists in Europe are not going to follow through with the infinite cold war plan what will they do and how will they use the neo Nazis in Ukraine? I suppose to think about this it is better to acknowledge the fact of the prominence of neo Nazis in Ukraine. If it makes you feel better, this was widely documented by mainstream sources before the memo went out to suppress that information going forward. But it's still out there.
