LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
So I was curious about how good some of the old NBA stars were. I tracked down an old friend of mine in Kazakhstan who just so happens to have old black and white footage of Wilt and Russell. His name is LuckyBron Safdiyev Mullestan and he is the director of nephew development in Zhezqazghan.
Well turns out in the totally random 6 game sample we watched for each of them Wilt and Russell only had 17 rebounds on average but they were credited with 19. A clear case of fraud and deception. In fact my
Lmao .. 😃.. 😃
The reality is that play-by-play information is required to know what plays to dispute and match a player's 5 steals from the boxscore to plays in the game - otherwise there's no way to know if you're looking at the right plays, thus compounding the errors.. A close call that you assume was awarded to Jordan could've already been awarded to the other guy... So it isn't possible to do what Haberstroh claims until 1997 when play-by-play information began.. But even then, stats like steals, assists and blocks are largely subjective, so there's no reason to believe that the 2nd subjective judgement is any better than the 1st one.
The live-ball turnover methodology is innovative but it isn't believable that Jordan's steals were more than an entire team's live-ball turnovers.. So it requires showing your work, which hasn't been done because the games weren't posted or made available to anyone outside of the author, aka fraud.
Ultimately, all players have one-offs of massive inflation such as 120% and 73% higher blocks for Lebron as a rookie and sophomore, or 82% higher stocks for 88' Jordan, or 50-65% higher for 90' Hakeem, 22' AD and 23' Jaren Jackson... But these are all one-offs, otherwise every other year of their career had normal home inflation, which decreased over time as road records improved.. So the home inflation isn't due to bad record keeping - it's due to bad road records/conditions that improved over time, while the one-offs of massive inflation that every player has could be due to any number of reasons other than league-wide cheating, such as personal issues affecting home/road performance.
LeBron: Forces his team to draft his son.
MJ: Son bangs Pippens ex.
Point for MJ imo
It's interesting because MJ's sons might be better at basketball than Bronny
But only 1 guy is okay with fraud, whether it's getting your crappy son in the NBA, or taking the top 3 players in the conference and putting them on 1 team, or the heist to get AD, or the media army to manufacture fake narratives and stories, and many more examples of fraud.
MJ's son banged Pippen's wife because he was that WIM in him.
The scope of LeBron’s career is hard to comprehend sometimes. Playing in the NBA with his son is truly incredible.
The scope of LeBron’s career is hard to comprehend sometimes. Playing in the NBA with his son is truly incredible.
No it isn't but I'm higher on him than everyone else - I just hate the shortcuts and the benefit of the doubt and caliber that everyone is expected to credit the James' with without them actually achieving it on the court.. aka Lebron is credited with GOAT without actually achieving it on the court, while Bronny is credited with NBA team without actually achieving it on the court.
Wild how much the current Lakers organization prioritizes ticket sales over championship prospects.
It is truly amazing that LeBron James has played a lot of seasons, and had a child at 20 years old, who is capable of averaging 4.8 ppg in the Pac12.
The scope of LeBron’s greatness is difficult to comprehend. So much so that the only way I can think to respond is to disrespect former players and **** all over the history of the NBA.
It is truly amazing that LeBron James has played a lot of seasons, and had a child at 20 years old, who is capable of averaging 4.8 ppg in the Pac12.
The scope of LeBron’s greatness is difficult to comprehend. So much so that the only way I can think to respond is to disrespect former players and **** all over the history of the NBA.
Old man yells at cloud, now with added salt
You is right. When I woke up this morning my first thought was “whyyyyy was Bronny James drafted by the Lakers with the 55th pick. Whatever will this do to Jordan’s legacy? He could n0t even dribble with his left hand, as secret tapes housed in Latvia have exp0sed conclusively.”
The salt was simply from the Transylvanian salt mines that hold the secret LeBron GOAT tapes, that prove all basketball prior to LeBron’s rookie year was trash. Wilt and Russell worship at the alter of King James and the hall of nephews.
Awww did the NFL GOAT thread get purged? One of my favorite reads here that's a shame.
* Lebron mostly lost when he had help, while MJ mostly won
* Lebron is associated with many historic losses that MJ doesn't have such as 4-0 losses, upset losses, record losses, losses with 2 all-star teammates, losses to 1-star teams, losses with top seeds (1 or 2 seeds), losses with favored talent (preseason favorites), choke losses, meltdown losses, locked up in a loss, lottery in prime (2019), and loser on championship level (worst-ever Finals record).
* Lebron had sidekicks that demonstrated superior capability to MJ's sidekicks in 3 distinct ways that include outplaying league MVP's (Curry, Jokic, Dirk), being equal-scoring partners to Lebron for entire playoff runs (11', 16'. 20'), and making the Finals without Lebron (Wade, Kyrie) .
* Lebron is ahead in defensive rebounds, assists, at-rim efficiency and playing longer (cumulative stats), but trails in PPG, offensive rebounds, SPG, BPG, lower turnovers, usage, ORTG, FT%, efficiency outside 3 feet, 3-point efficiency at modern volume (3+ attempts), PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, plus/minus, raptor, clutch production & efficiency, game-winner efficiency, MVP, Finals MVP, all-star MVP, dunk contest title, DPOY, 1st team defense, MDADD (max defensive attention defeated distinction, aka carried scoring load on championship level)
* Lebron has a historic coaching carousel (uncoachable) because when a big man dominates the ball, this puts everyone in spot-up roles and ties a coaches hands strategically, thus forcing the team to win via talent (more help), not brand of ball.
* Lebron was 2nd option for his 4th ring by virtue of being 2nd on the team in scoring for regular season, playoffs and against the pivotal comp in the playoffs (Jokic), while AD lifted the Lakers from lottery to champion.
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Everyone's stats show normal home inflation, which has been decreasing over time as road records and conditions improved... In addition to this normal inflation, there are one-offs of massive home inflation that everyone has like 120% and 73% inflation of Lebron's blocks in his first 2 seasons, or 50-80% inflation of stocks for 90' Hakeem, 22' AD, 88' Jordan, or 23' Jaren Jackson Jr - these one-offs could be due to any number of factors including personal issues affecting home/road performance for that particular year... So the point is that there are much better reasons than league-wide cheating by scorekeepers to explain normal home inflation and the one-offs of massive inflation, smh
[quote=IloveLukaandLebron]
Luka lost because the Mavs had too much of a deficit at the 3 thru 7 roster spots for anyone to overcome
[/quote]
The GOAT won 6 of 6 Finals with massive deficits at the 3 thru 7 roster spots:
1992 Finals
3. Kersey 14.8
4. Robinson 10.3
5. Ainge 10.0
6. Duckworth 9.3
7. Williams 7.8
________________
52.2 of 96.7 (53.9%)
3. Paxson 10.3
4. Grant 9.2
5. Cartwright 6.3
6. Armstrong 5.8
7. Williams 5.5
________________
37.1 of 104.0 (35.6%)
GAP: 18.3 percentage points
2024 FINALS
3. Holiday 14.4
4. White 13.8
5. Porzingas 12.3
6. Hauser 8.2
7. Horford 7.0
________________
55.7 of 101.6 (54.8%)
3. Washington 10.8
4. Gafford 8.0
5. Jones Jr. 6.6
6. Lively 5.6
7. Green 5.4
________________
36.4 points of 99.2 (36.7%)
GAP: 17.9 percentage points
It's interesting because doing this exercise for all of MJ's Finals shows that Finals opponents during the 1st three-peat were completely stacked compared to opponents during the 2nd three-peat, which forced MJ to carry a much bigger load during the 1st three-peat than the 2nd.
Everyone's stats show normal home inflation, which has been decreasing over time as road records and conditions improved... In addition to this normal inflation, there are one-offs of massive home inflation that everyone has like 120% and 73% inflation of Lebron's blocks in his first 2 seasons, or 50-80% inflation of stocks for 90' Hakeem, 22' AD, 88' Jordan, or 23' Jaren Jackson Jr - these one-offs could be due to any number of factors including personal issues affecting home/road performance f
While I don’t think Jordan was the best defensive player in the NBA from ~’86-‘88 (that was almost certainly Hakeem), the facts — Jordan’s defensive reputation among players, coaches, and sports writers — as well as your analysis makes it clear he was among the best. And since there is subjectivity involved in these awards, not only was Jordan perfectly qualified to win DPOY in ‘88, this whole grainy Latvian VHS tape thing (the nephew equivalent of the Patterson/Gimlin film) actually got people to look back at basketball history. And we see he could very easily have won it in ‘87 as well.
Turns out the history of basketball and the NBA was actually pretty great, and people could dribble with their left hand and play defense in the past. Maybe Wilt, Russell, and Kareem were good at basketball too? Who knows.
No disrespect to modern day players though. The things players like Nikola Jokic do is incredible. 3 MVPs in four seasons, and a championship on a team with zero other all stars without feeling the need to superteam hop is truly incredible in the modern NBA. He’s definitely the GOAT of the post-Jordan era, if we consider the league to be “more evolved” now with the different rules, and the spacing and offensive strategy that entails.
Great work as always fallguy. Thank you for opening our eyes to how good Jordan was defensively, even in the years he wasn’t voted defensive player of the year.
While I don’t think Jordan was the best defensive player in the NBA from ~’86-‘88 (that was almost certainly Hakeem), the facts — Jordan’s defensive reputation among players, coaches, and sports writers — as well as your analysis makes it clear he was among the best. And since there is subjectivity involved in these awards, not only was Jordan perfectly qualified to win DPOY in ‘88, this whole grainy Latvian VHS tape thing (the nephew equivalent of the P
I understand the argument that Hakeem is a better defender than Jordan and I agree in a vacuum.
However, Jokic dominates to the same extent as Hakeem or even more without being a great defender - Jokic doesn't even have any great defenders on his team, yet the Nuggets played historic defense against the 23' Heat in the Finals because Jokic and/or other Nuggets foster a culture of effort, while having long-standing chemistry - these are the primary factors for a great team defense (culture of effort and long-standing chemistry), and MJ facilitated these 2 things as much as anyone.. His off-ball skillset allowed ball movment and chemistry development (long-standing chemistry), while his leadership fostered a culture of effort... So I think the quality of a player's individual defense or help defense is less important than great communication on defense (chemistry) and tireless work ethic (culture of effort).. So even though MJ can't match Hakeem's individual or help defense, he was closer than most and his other intangibles provide additional offset.
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Actually, I retract the last post - here's why MJ is the greatest defender of all-time
The gaudy numbers and analytics of all-time rim protectors like Hakeem and Rudy Gobert don't carry the same impact over eras because today's era can bring bigs away from the rim entirely and actually exploit these bigs and make them be a negative for the team in many matchups
We saw this with the Twolves and Gobert being a negative for them in so many spots... Time and time again we see this trend of so-called great-defending bigs being completely nullified in today's game - we saw it with DeAndre Ayton in Phoenix or DPOY's like DeAndre Jordan and many more - it's standard to nullify 7-footers like Hakeem in today's game... It's interesting how Ayton was a prodigal #1 pick but he came around right at the time of the 3-pointer era, which effectively reduced him to nearly a role player.
With 7-footers or that type of defender out of the way, who else could there be except the GOAT?.. It's all intuitive - the GOAT is the best on both sides of the ball.
Actually, I retract the last post - here's why MJ is the greatest defender of all-time
The gaudy numbers and analytics of all-time rim protectors like Hakeem and Rudy Gobert don't carry the same impact over eras because today's era can bring bigs away from the rim entirely and actually exploit these bigs and make them a negative for the team in many matchups
We saw this with the Twolves and Gobert being a negative for them in so many spots... Time and time again we see this trend of so-called great-defending bigs being completely nullified in today's game - we saw it with DeAndre Ayton in Phoenix or DPOY's like DeAndre Jordan and many more - it's standard to nullify 7-footers like Hakeem in today's game... It's interesting how Ayton was a prodigal #1 pick but he came around right at the time of the 3-pointer era, which effectively reduced him to nearly a role player.
With 7-footers or that type of defender out of the way, who else could there be except the GOAT?.. It's all intuitive - the GOAT is the best on both sides of the ball.
Ultimately, anyone that can be exploited in PNR's is disqualified... That leaves MJ and a bunch of inferior perimeter defenders that he's much quicker and more instinctive than like Kawhi, Roberston, Artest, etc, or bigger/longer than like Payton, Smart, etc
Gobert won DPOY this year for ****s sake, he'd obviously dominate every ****ing era
You always just look at one series where he wasn't absolutely dominant and then say that is the only thing that matters, not a ****ing decade as an elite defender, Jordan isn't anywhere near Gobert's impact on defense.
He defended Luka on his game-winning 3, it was a low % shot that hit, **** happens.
fallguy: jordan wasn't a prolific three point shooter because that just wasn't a thing in his era
also fallguy: hakeem was not as good a defender as MJ because today luka doncic would exploit him on the perimeter off PnRs
Next, fallguy explains to us why Jordan is the greatest humanitarian of all time.
He's probably also the greatest actor of all time.
And the greatest baseball player ever, just didn't have enough time to show us.
Start a Church of Jordan or something.
AND THE BEST GAMBLER
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3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR ALL REGULAR SEASON GAMES WHERE MJ HAD 3+ ATTEMPTS:
1985..... 4-18
1986...... 3-6
1987...... 5-22
1988...... 1-3
1989...... 16-49
1990...... 75-187
1991...... 11-30
1992...... 13-39
1993...... 68-185
__________________________
total....... 196-539 (36.4%)
PLAYOFF SERIES WITH 3+ ATTEMPTS HIGHLIGHTED BELOW (REGULAR LINE ONLY):
53 of 135 = 39%
fallguy: jordan wasn't a prolific three point shooter because that just wasn't a thing in his era
also fallguy: hakeem was not as good a defender as MJ because today luka doncic would exploit him on the perimeter off PnRs
I never said the first thing that you claimed - I started with a statistical foundation by saying that Jordan always shot well at today's volume (3+ attempts).
Specifically, during the 1985 to 1993 regular seasons (the regular line years), MJ shot 36.4% on threes for games where he had 3+ attempts and 39% for playoff series where he had 3+ attempts.. So again, there are zero examples of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes (3+ attempts), while there are tons of examples of Lebron shooting poorly at 3+ attempts.
Since MJ was already shooting 36-39% at today's volumes despite no practice or focus on the shot (the entire era didn't focus on the shot), MJ would shoot 40% or more WITH practice in today's game.
Ultimately, MJ was the goat 2-point jumpshooter and had great 3-point ability when he decided to have today's volume - this isn't an opinion, it's what the stats say, as shown above.. So Jordan is a goat-level jumpshooter while Lebron shoots 37% outside of 3 feet for his career and is a historic bricklayer - most people would probably guess that he's the 689th best jumpshooter in the history of basketball (give or take) on 2 pointers or 3-pointers.
MJ's 91' Finals Per possession & clutch-time stats revealed for 1st time:
defensive possessions stats revealed as well
