LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Yeah sorry, miscounted PBR there
And fair enough on the core point
https://x.com/Rome_Beast/status/17542393...
LeBron out there living his best life putting in the work that earns you 20 straight All NBAs
^^^ that's nice but prime Kobe proved superior by outplaying prime Lebron against the exact same playoff opponent 5/5 times:
08' Kobe vs Celtics................. 26 on 41%
08' Lebron vs Celtics'............. 26 on 36%
2010 Kobe vs Celtics.............. 29 on 41%
2010 Lebron vs Celtics'.......... 26 on 44%
2011 Kobe vs Mavs................ 22 on 40%
2011 Lebron vs Mavs'............ 18 on 47%
08' Kobe vs Spurs................... 29 on 53%
07' Lebron vs Spurs'............... 22 on 36%
09' Kobe vs Magic................... beat Magic
09' Lebron vs Magic'............... lost to Magic*
* lost as historic favorite due to excessive ball-dominant stats and goat choke in critical Game 4 (7 TO in fourth), and decided to guard Lee instead of Hedo (goat defensive blunder)
2004 Cavs - 0 all-stars
2005 Cavs - 2 all-stars
2006 Cavs - add HOF coach and 22/5/5 all-defender
^^^ this is the definition of organic growth - the Cavs grew into a veteran-laden, high seed before entering Lebron's 1st playoffs
So the narrative that Lebron "carried" teams is overblown because tons of guys took 3 years to make the playoffs and tons of guys took 6 or 7 years of organic growth to develop a 60-win, 1 seed like Lebron had in 2009 and 2010 - Giannis, Jokic, Curry and Jordan all did the same thing with "organic" casts, aka 1 all-star and role players, or even no all-stars..
And Lebron's run in 2007 is also overblown and a function of playing in the 00's East - it's the only conference in history that let multiple 1-star teams win the conference such as Miller, Iverson, Lebron, Dwight, and Kidd twice - that's 6 of 10 yeas from 00-09'.. Otoh, the 90's East and West only had one-offs with Ewing and Hakeem in 94', otherwise 2-star teams won every year - every other conference in history is like this except the 00's East where many 1-star teams won in that decade.. This historically-weak conference is why Lebron only needed 25 on 45% in the 07' East Playoffs or ECF - this would be the worst series of Jordan's career..
In the 2007 ECF, Lebron had a 50-win 2 seed that defeated a 53-win 1 seed, so it only required 25 on 45% from Lebron... Superior upsets are seen with Jordan's multiple upsets in the 89' Playoffs that entailed an actual low seed vs #1 SRS and all-star teams - this david vs goliath required 40/6/8 stats, while his upset of the 98' Jazz required winning with the most bed-wetting teammates of all-time and therefore facing max defensive attention (carrying scoring load) more than anyone ever has.. Lebron's 25 on 45% and 2 seed vs 1 seed doesn't compare to these kinds of upsets.
Heck, Iverson had two 50-point games in the 01' ECF, so his performance was also superior, or 22-year old Amare averaged 37 on 55% against 05' Spurs compared to Lebron had 22 on 35% against the Parker-led Spurs in 07'.. Furthermore, Kobe outplayed Lebron against the same playoff opponents each year from 2007-2011 (5 straight years, shown in previous post above).. So there are MANY ways to show that Lebron wasn't that great in his early Cleveland days and benefitted massively from the weakest conference in history or having numerous years to develop his team before even entering the playoffs.. Despite these advantages, Lebron wet the bed with three 2nd Round losses (06', 08', 10'), a historic upset in 09' ECF, 2 lotteries and a massive bed-wetting vs Spurs (22 on 36%) - he was basically horrible until he formed super-teams, where he still drastically underachieved.. Again, there are many ways to easily demonstrate that Lebron wasn't that great.
I'm sure Kobe is an unbiased narrator on Shaq's career.
I'm going to struggle with the "underachieved" label for someone with 4 rings, 14 All NBA nods and a peak stretch as good as Shaq managed. Dude played 21 years in the league, and 16 of those were unambiguously good at a minimum. The extent to which he was lazy is surely overblown?
Knowing how competitive kobe is and wanted to prove to the world he could of win without shaq .
Giving the node to shaq by saying « for sure » , « winning like 12 rings » speaks volumes imo.
Fwiw for the few times I heard kobe post career , he always sounded very balance and critical in his basketball analysis.
Sometimes pictures speaks louder then words .
Broken YouTube LinkShaq was basically a mobile big show but slightly taller o0. .
And those wwe guys are freakn huge !
Can u imagine A dedicated shaq like LeBron or kobe …
No, candypants. The actual scientific definition of projection used by psychologists is when you attribute your own feelings onto a different person or object.
Sure.
Me pointing out that it’s cool and interesting that fallguy has had a successful career and also appears to have had a reasonably successful athletic background is actually the opposite of jealousy. Using like, the English language definition of jealousy. If you weren’t a raging dumbass you’d have understood that in the first 5 seconds of reading my post.
You seem to have completely missed the point. Serious question - are you autistic? You might not be diagnosed but it might be worth checking out. Has it ever occurred to you that you're just missing some stuff in your social interactions with others? There's certainly some garden-variety narcissism mixed in - and that likely leads to issues with self-awareness - but I do wonder if there's another underlying condition. You're otherwise a reasonably smart person, but somewhat unsuccessful (and quite angry about it) at least compared to your intelligence and age. What gives?
You, however, weirdly and creepily asking about his relationship with his parents is almost certainly projection because it’s, well, really ****ing weird and that’s the only thing that makes sense.
Do you read your own posts?
I am not in fact a 6’7 wing and I have not played basketball much since I blew out my knee in college, but I have actually played competitively in the past.
What did you learn from playing "competitively" in the past? How do you think it's helping you as a middle-aged person that's honestly not doing too well in life? If you had children (my guess is you don't), what life lessons would you want them to learn from playing competitive sports?
You can probably tell because I don’t attack people’s relationships with their mom and dad on the internet
Sure, you instead openly fantasize about other posters being fat and living in their mom's basement or applying to your company for a janitorial position (as though there's something wrong with it). That sounds normal and not at all weird or creepy.
I would also suggest that you let go of this hierarchical view of the world (what's wrong with being a janitor? why is that a punchline?) - given your likely place on the totem pole, that type of thinking only makes you feel insecure and unhappy. There's nothing wrong with having a lower-paying job, we need people of all kinds for the society to function.
There's absolutely no shame in being a janitor. Have we learned nothing from the movie Good Will Hunting?
You interrogate fallguy on his relationship
with his mother and father, his employment history, and his athletic history.
He replies with proof that he is and has been successful with respect to all that.
I say that’s great hope no one gets mad about it because they probably will!
You get mad and accuse me of being jealous (???)
Projection is attributing your own feelings to others.
I mean, I’m not jealous based on normal use of the English language. You being mad that your line of interrogation on fallguy led to nothing, and then you accusing someone else of being jealous is the literal definition of projection.
Do you understand when it’s laid out line by line? Candypants yes or candypants no. Hard to move on from this because I’m sure next you’re going to start saying I got mad at my mom and dad when I was 6 or something.
Serious question - are you autistic?
I don’t think so. Do you ever have a conversation with someone where you DON’T project your own negative traits (as you clearly view them)? Don’t worry candybar, we love you as you are even if mommy and daddy didn’t. Hugs all around.
Has it ever occurred to you that you're just missing some stuff in your social interactions with others?
Never got that feedback from others, no. Well, except ironically from someone who was self-admittedly diagnosed with high-functioning autism. It’s a good thing you never project or we might assume you have a touch of the ‘tism yourself.
There's certainly some garden-variety narcissism mixed in
Maybe — I am clearly better than you. Ha ha just kidding.
No but seriously I have no idea what’s going on here and it’s hilarious. Well ok actually I do and it’s really really obvious. It’s such textbook projection that I feel like you’re going to start accusing me of lacking self awareness next.
and that likely leads to issues with self-awareness
Well then.
- but I do wonder if there's another underlying condition. You're otherwise a reasonably smart person, but somewhat unsuccessful (and quite angry about it) at least compared to your intelligence and age. What gives?
It’s probably my relationship with my mother and father right? You’re on a roll candybar. Maybe everyone who likes Michael Jordan is unsuccessful and has mommy and daddy issues? Hahaha I can’t believe I wrote that out and it’s actually a fair summary of your Internet personality.
Do you read your own posts?
Sometimes and they’re usually pretty awesome thanks for asking.
What did you learn from playing "competitively" in the past? How do you think it's helping you as a middle-aged person that's honestly not doing too well in life? If you had children (my guess is you don't), what life lessons would you want them to learn from playing competitive sports?
I’m not sure I learned anything except that it was fun. Maybe how to work as a team? How to practice and work hard? Stuff like that.
I honestly don’t feel like commenting on my children or family because you’re honestly the creepiest mother****er I’ve ever encountered and I feel like you’re across the street right now staring in my window or something typing on your gaming laptop.
Sure, you instead openly fantasize about other posters being fat and living in their mom's basement or applying to your company for a janitorial position (as though there's something wrong with it). That sounds normal and not at all weird or creepy.
Not fantasizing, I just get heavy fat basement dweller vibes from some of the people on here that constantly go on the personal attack against fallguy for liking Michael Jordan. Seriously it’s weird as **** and that was my honest impression.
I would also suggest that you let go of this hierarchical view of the world (what's wrong with being a janitor? why is that a punchline?) - given your likely place on the totem pole, that type of thinking only makes you feel insecure and unhappy. There's nothing wrong with having a lower-paying job, we need people of all kinds for the society to function.
Nothing wrong with being a janitor, as I told you it’s a perfectly respectable job. In all seriousness given the way you’ve attacked multiple people by asking really deep-divey questions on their employment history (kind of like you’re doing now), I 100% thought you in all likelihood did not have a job. And I was basically calling you a dumbass indirectly so sorry about that. I never actually asked any of our C-level people to give you a job either that was a joke. Lastly, I’m also not listing out my job history the way you got fallguy to (and maybe others too that I didn’t see) so maybe you should go back to talking about how anyone who doesn’t think LeBron is the GOAT has mommy issues? Seriously though why are you so obsessed with people’s job histories?? Like I’ve said I am sure you are super duper successful so I don’t understand the motivation here either.
Matt R / candybar
You could, you know, take your personal feud that has nothing to do with GOAT discussion to PMs.
Thanks in advance.
Matt R: stop picking on poor fallguy! His giant walls of texts worshipping Jordan are completely normal and rational behavior!
Also Matt R: you guys all sound like fat basement dwellers.
Can't make this stuff up.
Who’s the GOAT Knick? Ewing?
I'd say its Walt Clyde Frazier.
U only need great 1 year for goat status for the Knick ?
Wasn’t longevity a pretty important factors on being a goat :p
51 years without a title + Finals MVP + championship in a super competitive season when they were projected 45.5 o/u wins and a likely #7 seed in the East?
Yep GOAT Knick.
Matt R / candybar
You could, you know, take your personal feud that has nothing to do with GOAT discussion to PMs.
Thanks in advance.
Allin-McLovin/SABR42
You could, you know, take your personal vendetta against people that write posts about MJ to PM. That way when fallguy posts basketball arguments you guys can get real mad and call him a loser in private and we don’t have to read it.
Thanks in advance.
Matt R: stop picking on poor fallguy! His giant walls of texts worshipping Jordan are completely normal and rational behavior!
Also Matt R: you guys all sound like fat basement dwellers.
Can't make this stuff up.
Not ALL you guys. Just some of you. There are some people that are talking about basketball related topics and some people that get mad at people who are talking about basketball topics. I didn’t name anyone by name. Didn’t mean to get in the way of anyone bullying fallguy! Sorry if you feel this was directed at you, I am sure you and McLovin were only posting solid analytical arguments about basketball so you’re in the clear. Carry on with your rational GOAT discussion didn’t mean to interrupt.
What children? Why the pretense?
Never got that feedback from others, no. Well, except ironically from someone who was self-admittedly diagnosed with high-functioning autism.
You do understand that this type of feedback is rarely given directly in real life, right? What normally happens is that other people roll their eyes, make eye contact with one another with subtle gestures and facial expressions that largely communicate something like this:
Matt R: stop picking on poor fallguy! His giant walls of texts worshipping Jordan are completely normal and rational behavior!
Also Matt R: you guys all sound like fat basement dwellers.
Can't make this stuff up.
You're having a lot of trouble interpreting basic stuff and repeating yourself over and over (I got it the first time, tyvm). What is going on? You do understand that it's better to understand your own issues and deal with them (it's okay, nobody's perfect!)?
For instance:
I never actually asked any of our C-level people to give you a job either that was a joke.
Why does this need to be said?
Matt R: stop picking on poor fallguy! His giant walls of texts worshipping Jordan are completely normal and rational behavior!
Also Matt R: you guys all sound like fat basement dwellers.
Can't make this stuff up.
I think we need to be more gentle with Matt moving forward, he does seem to be dealing with some conditions, it can't be easy.
Matt R / candybar
You could, you know, take your personal feud that has nothing to do with GOAT discussion to PMs.
Thanks in advance.
Sure, will keep that in mind. Just to be clear, I don't have any personal feud with Matt (or twog) - it's rather obvious to me that they are struggling with something (though what that is, I'm not 100% sure) so I'm trying to see what I can do to help them see.
fallguy, I didn't forget about our conversation. Super impressive stuff you've done, you sure seem to be the best athlete ITT though others are free to challenge with their own clips, even Matt. Feel free to share some evidence of being a lady-killing panty-dropper too, since you made that claim. Either way, wanted to point out that you didn't answer this yet:
Btw, if people are serious about understanding the GOAT argument (not the PPG nonsense that's being peddled here) I found that these threads on RealGM have much higher quality analysis (the kind that I'd rather have) on the topic:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtop...
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtop...
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtop...
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtop...
The TL;DR is that MJ just doesn't stand out even above his best contemporaries (DRob/Hakeem) when you look at impact metrics that aren't heavily influenced by box metrics, unless you start to cherry-pick stats that ignore context. In particular, box metrics are more accurate with respect to offense, but highly questionable with respect to defense. In order to buy MJ as having GOAT-level impact at his peak, we have to buy what box metrics say about his defense, even though they aren't corroborated by impact metrics, nor by eye test or comps. I know some people here thought I was some MJ-hater because I don't have him #2. While I cannot endorse every thing in these threads, I hope these provide some analytical support for that idea. In short, Russell looks unbelievable in impact metrics and because peak is much harder to discern while Kareem's longevity so completely dominates MJ, it's difficult to have MJ over Kareem.
I had mentioned earlier that in serious circles, the only argument against Lebron is scalability / ceiling-raising concerns due to his style of play but that I personally don't buy this and the likes of Ben Taylor (the backpicks guy I've quoted before, he's probably the biggest Jordan fan among reasonably serious data-driven folks) are not giving sufficient consideration to the fact that Jordan had high-level team success in just one system, while Lebron led multiple top-tier teams with different coaches/systems/casts. Well looks like my general assessment is close to the consensus among folks who are deep in the weeds with numbers and pour over impact metrics.
I was never any good at basketball (lack height and especially wingspan) but I'm pretty confident I'm the strongest guy ITT.
Short limbs are no good for basketball but quite good for lifting weights.
I was never any good at basketball (lack height and especially wingspan) but I'm pretty confident I'm the strongest guy ITT.
Short limbs are no good for basketball but quite good for lifting weights.
I trust you but we still need clips and #s for verification. Do you have a crazy vertical too? Some weight-lifting folks have insane verticals.
Jordan = DROB is the best take in this fred.
