LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

You gotta admire twog's dedication and passion.

There's Passion of the Christ. Twog has Passion of the GOAT!

Jordan was better than Lebron at all the other stats too.

Lebron trails Jordan in every defensive stat there is, such as SPG, BPG, DRTG, DBPM, all-defense, DPOY, yearly DPOY voting, and more... Lebron wasn't all-defense in his 30's and therefore wasn't required to be a great defender for the latter half of his chips, while Jordan was one of the steals leaders and 1st team defense for every chip, and usually the blocks leader among backcourt players.

Meanwhile, it's bball 101 that defensive rebounding is purely positional, while Jordan was better at offensive rebounds and team assists/ball movement.. It's wrong to think that a player with 18 assists did better than someone with 8 assists - higher individual assists isn't always better, so it's useless to compare individual APG, unless the player has an actual deficit in assist ability (i.e. cannot average 5 or 6 APG regularly, and not capable of elite assists like 10+ if needed).

Furthermore, assists and rebounds are role player categories, while Lebron's need for scoring help is why he needed so much STAR help.. Otoh, Jordan won with the least all-star help ever because he could carry the star category (scoring).

Bird, Magic and Jokic are better rebounder-passers than Lebron... Even if you disagree, it's obviously very debateable and could go either way.. So the point is that the "lebron-type" of scorer-passer-rebounder is exactly what Jordan already proved that he was far better than when he proved he was better than Magic/Bird..

So it doesn't matter if someone rebounds or assists better than Jordan because Magic and Bird supposedly did too and it didn't matter..

MJ was just too dominant as a 2-way player, while his scoring in particular was unprecedented then and now - no one has been a good enough scorer to undertake the biggest possession burden in the league (usage champ) and still play a championship brand of ball (win as usage champ), yet Jordan did it 5 times.

Ultimately, I've heard other people's reasons for Jordan being GOAT and they suck - they water down Jordan's career to a few soundbites like "6 for 6", or 3-peat... I describe exactly why he went 6/6 - his goat scoring diversity fit with all players and coaches, thereby allowing the highest capacity for chemistry, strategy/coaching, and ultimately, the highest team ceilings/Finals records.. Otoh, Lebron's lack of expert jumpshooting skill and the resulting high-scoring ball-domination imposes spot-up roles, which yields the worst chemistry, strategy/coaching, and ultimately team ceilings/Finals records.. If this doesn't make complete sense, then there's a reading comp or hoops IQ issue with the reader.

09' MO WILLIAMS......... 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4... #3 team defense
11' JASON TERRY........... 15.8 PER... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... 0.9 BPM... 16/2/4... #8 team defense

05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

Jordan took 1990 Pippen and won 6 titles with him, while Lebron received 4 players that were superior to 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop them into anything and didn't win anything with them (Zydrunas, Hughes, Mo, Jamison).

And Lebron already had more defensive help than MJ by virtue of having top 5 defense in 07' without being all-defense himself, and then he added 2 players that were better than 1990 Pippen in 09' and 10'.

https://x.com/BricksCenter/status/182093...

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Exhibit A

09' MO WILLIAMS......... 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4... #3 team defense
11' JASON TERRY........... 15.8 PER... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... 0.9 BPM... 16/2/4... #8 team defense

Exhibit B

Lebron received 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen, but he couldn't develop them or win with them


05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

Half-Page Crash-Course on Lebron's Early Cavs Teams

Jordan's early playoff record suffered by being thrown into the playoffs immediately in Year 1 with no time to grow his team, while Lebron achieved a better early playoff record by waiting 3 years to develop a high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'... This 3-year development included Lebron and Zydrunas becoming all-stars in 05', while adding a HOF coach entering the 06' season, along with a 22/6/5 all-defensive player that was playing better than 1990 Pippen (stats above).

From 2005-2010, the Cavs ran a modern-style pick-n-pop with Lebron and Big Z as their go-to play - this gave them a strategic advantage at the time, but Big Z was still behind Lebron, Mo, Jamison, or even Hughes.. That's far more scoring help than Jordan ever had, plus better defensive rankings than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

The Cavs had the 4th-ranked defense in 2007, which was long before Lebron made an all-defensive team, so the Cavs had great defensive help for Lebron.. They had an all-defensive backcourt (Snow, Hughes) and the acquisition of 33-year old Ben Wallace in 2008 was similar to 34-year Rodman joining the Bulls.. The Cavs became a 7-year organic juggernaut by 2010 with Zydrunas, Shaq and Varejao providing great rebounding and defense, while Jamison, Mo and Zydrunas provided all-star scoring experience.. Many guys have won with less than this, such as Jokic, Dirk and MJ, to name a few.

This issue is that Lebron gave up on the chemistry learning curve required to win with organic rosters of 1 franchise player and opted for better rosters of 3 franchise players (super-team), aka talent-based winning.. Since he never learned championship chemistry, he always needs more talent (more help)..
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That was just beautiful, LeBron’s 4th quarter would bring a tear to your eye

Lebron is a play-in caliber guy in the NBA, which is lottery in prior eras (since there was no play-in back then).

So none of this matters..

If Lebron didn't have all the most catastrophic upset losses of the century thus far, such as the 04' Olympics, 06' World Games, 11' Finals, and 14' Finals (the record).........

or if he had a dynasty with Wade/Bosh, Kyrie/Love and won all the titles like he was supposed to....

then the media wouldn't need to suddenly pretend that a player's international resume means anything - everyone knows this is just to boost an ridiculoustly-deficient resume and a career with the most bad losses in history (upset losses, sweep losses, record losses, losses with 2 all-stars, locked up in a loss, losses with favored talent (preseason favorites, homecourt advantage or Dream Teams

Cry harder man, not sure anyone is reading it at this point

Half the fans know that there's never been a bigger fraud in sports history, while the other half are brainwashed or in denial.

There's never been a bigger loser, choker, whiner, sensitive sally, fake bravado, soft, manufactured resume or weak mentality in the history of the NBA and there are clear-cut, specific examples of all of this.. It's fact and the historical record.

I derive my enjoyment from the NBA by watching people fall for the fraud.. Hearing or reading a bron fan say something ignorant is like watching a blooper video or something - it's good entertainment.

Cry harder

Imagine being defiant and like "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO" about the best American NBA stars beating a bunch of g-leaguers and bottom-feeders

lol

I only check in to see if they lost, because they're bad enough that it's worth a quick check - there's a material-enough chance that these bums and their worst-ever brand of ball might lose to ridiculously-less-talented teams.. so it's worth a check to see if i can get that laugh

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Oh look, Curry-ball when it matters

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Bird
4. Curry
5. Russell
6. Wilt
7. Kareem
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Magic

How could a player with the most catastrophic losses of the 21st century be a goat candidate?.. It's absurd - the most catastrophic or biggest losses this century were 04' Olympics, 06' World Games, 11' Finals, 14' Finals (record), 18' Finals (record).

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Guards that bailed out Lebron

* Boobie (2007 ECF)
* Allen (2013 Finals)
* Kyrie (2016 Finals)
* Curry (2024 Olympic Semis)

MATHEMATICAL EQUATION FOR "CHOKE FACTOR":

regular efficiency - clutch-time efficiency = choke factor

Lebron shoots 40% in clutch-time for his career (last 5 within 5), which is 10-15 points below his regular efficiency - this would be considered a "massive" choke factor..

Lebron also shoots 37% on game-winners and 0% in the Finals (0-7).. He's never scored on the last possession of a 1-possession game in the Finals.

Even 39 year old Lebron isn't allowed to have a good teammate. Triple double and probably 2nd MVP of the game let's see who else was ever capable of that.

The triple double was great but it was more the energy he was able to put forth in the 4th, including some great defensive sets on Jokic. Obviously it only comes rarely in the biggest moments these days, but when he can summon that effort he’s still one of the best players in the world. That’s the wild bit - at 39, amongst this company, he can still be a tone setter when it’s really needed

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"My game doesn't change, no matter who I'm alongside"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n5upPeQIGk&t=03m48s

YouTube

LeBron James KEEPS EMBARASSING TEAM USA

The US would be much better without Lebron.

The only reason they have many close calls against vastly inferior talent is because of they don't play 5-man basketball as much as other teams, due to Bron-ball - he's the only high-scoring ball-dominator on the team, and it's the most abnormal ball-dominance (frontcourt ball-dominance)... This weak brand requires thorough dominance like prime Lebron, but even then the bad brand and chemistry mostly loses regardless of cast.. He'll win once in a blue moon, regardless of cast, such as 1/4 with Love, AD or Wade (except the Allen miracle).

Ditto the Lakers.. They would be better without him.. 25 ppg in today's NBA is the same thing as 20 ppg in previous eras - it's literally nothing, especially for the biggest ball-dominator and worst chemistry of all-time.. It's a toxic 25 that is killing the organic development of the current Lakers..

A player that everyone says makes guys better and plays 5 positions actually has a massive track record of bad fits and teammates cratering alongside him, due to a 1-dimensional "primary ballhandler" skillset - this "down-hill" sklilset isn't 5-man basketball.. Consequently, this so-called "winner" mostly lost regardless of who we put around him and has the most catastrophic losses that the game has seen this centery (04' Olympics, 06' World Games, 11' Finals, 14' Finals (record).. It's called fraud.
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Nearly 40 years old and he plays the most minutes on team USA when they have a tough game. Dude wants it more than anybody and still backs it up.

Lebron's presence is the only reason that the US is drastically underachieving by almost losing to a 1-man team with a Dream Team that includes various top 20 all-time players - this is drastic underachievement, due to stat-padding and empty-stats of Lebron-ball.

The US is catering to Lebron and his bad brand of ball, which is nearly causing historic loss with massively-favored talent.

This is the story of his career, so MJ fans don't need Lebron to lose these Olympics to prove that he's a fraud because he already has the most bad losses that anyone ever had in the NBA, such as sweep losses, record losses, upset losses, meltdown losses, choke losses, losses with 2 all-stars, lottery seasons, losses with favored talent (preseason favorites, top seeds, homecourt) and more..

Lebron already has the most catastrophic losses of this century, such as the 04' Olympics, 06' World Games, 11' Finals and 14' Finals, so what's another historic loss going to do?.. It's just more of the same.

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Recent thread Cliffs

Chemistry + big talent edge = blowout

So the US nearly lost 4 times due to weak chemistry, aka bron-ball, which means the US would be much better without Lebron - they would blow everyone away like their massive talent advantage dictates they should.

I'm waiting to hear what you say when team USA loses in 2028 without Lebron. Somehow it'll still be Lebron's fault.

In the 04 Olympics they lost because Iverson and Marbury were their 2 leaders in FGA, that's not a winning recipe. Lebron played like 11 minutes a game and played well in those minutes.

I saw the pic of Lebron and Curry, but if it takes all that to beat Serbia, please explain how they could hang with the original Dream Team, especially when they're getting routinely dominated and down 17 points to Serbia, South Sudan and other teams?

This tourney has confirmed that the current team would get beaten badly by the original Dream Team.

And Lebron lost in 06' too .. Lebron lost 4 games in 04' and 06', while MJ was 16-0 in 84' and 92', while going 9-0 against NBA all-stars in 84'.

Reading every post except fallguy’s in this thread is a fun experience.

Your theory is not great.

USA +14 in LeBron minutes
USA -10 in non-LeBron minutes (7 minutes)

Lebron clearly one of the biggest contributors at age 39 on the 2024 team. Team is eliminated yesterday without him.

Jordan lowest FG% on the 92 dream team chucking bricks while Barkley and Mullins etc carry the team.