LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

I know this is a shock but Scottie Pippen is a better basketball player than Kuzma, Ingram, Hughes etc

Nah Pippen sucks. He'd be in the G-League today.

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bballref says the first "point forward" ever was a lightweight and only 185 pounds, but he was actually 201 pounds:

This was only his 2nd season, so it wasn't just because the weight wasn't updated as his career went along

Larry Nance was a great defender that averaged 3 blocks for his career, while also being a secondary scorer that could get around 17-20 ppg.

This caliber is very similar to Pippen, but Nance is ranked where the numbers say he should be ranked at around 125 all-time, while Pippen's similar caliber was inflated by the winning spotlight to top 30 all-time status.

So lets do what you guys always want everyone to do with Lebron, which is IGNORE RING COUNT... If we ignore ring count, it's a historical fact that Pippen never played above a prime Iggy or Larry Nance level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade...

Pippen did suck in 1988..

And 1989..

that's the point - MJ developed a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg, while Lebron was handed ready-made all-stars, all-defenders and 20 ppg scorers like Zydrunas, Hughes or Jamison, respectively.. Lebron also received the all-star spacer that his stiff arm needs to win MVP and 60 games in 2009.. He didn't have to develop any of these guys.. Meanwhile, Ingram or Kuzma were averaging 16-18 when Lebron received them as 2nd and 3rd year players, while MJ had to develop an 8 ppg rookie.

Ultimately, MJ developed Pippen into a secondary producer and then mostly won with him, while Lebron reduced elite producers to secondary producers and then mostly lost with them.. The diverging results from MJ and Lebron, such as MJ developing teammates and Lebron reducing them - this stems from their differing skillsets... Specifically, Jordan's goat scoring diversity fits any system or teammate (elite off-ball and on-ball skillset), while Lebron's reliance on ball-dominance at high scoring levels imposes spot-up roles.

carry on

by fallguy k

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bballref says the first "point forward" ever was a lightweight and only 185 pounds, but he was actually 201 pounds:

This was only his 2nd season, so it wasn't just because the weight wasn't updated as his career went along

You've uncovered a massive conspiracy to deceive the public. Well done.

What is your point ?
No one ever claim he was better then the joker and no one even mention joker anyway .

All I said was kukoc had good support and u seem to disagree by saying he wasn’t that good and I reply well he was at his peak and his peak was allnba 3rd team .
That seem great support that all .

So I don’t follow what u try to arrived at with all that narrative ?
The joker has 1 teammates that is legit , 2 others that barely play 1 year shrug .

Are u saying the U.S. team should not dominate them ?

After they both made the 2005 all-star team, Lebron and Zydrunas acquired a HOF coach and player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:

05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... No All-D

Jordan would obviously 3-peat with that.. The reason Lebron failed with Hughes is because it was a horrible fit just like Lebron-Westbrook... Hughes cratered alongside Lebron.

Of course it's bball 101 that bad fits = skill deficit.... i.e. spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Lebron, Hughes, Westbrook, or Ingram need great shooters around them and therefore don't fit with each other.

18-year old rookie Wiggins..... 16.9 ppg (ROY)
23-year old rookie Pippen......... 7.9 ppg

Who looks like they had more upside?

Unfortunately, only 1 of them could land alongside the MVP/DPOY and get an "ivy league" 2-way education - it's the optimal situation for a perimeter player, especially since MJ's off-ball game puts the ball in their hands and then bails them out if needed as the goat assist-target.

This off-ball approach is how MJ developed guys like Pippen, Wiggins, Hughes or Ingram, which contrasts with Lebron dominating the ball and turning everyone into a spot-up shooter.

6 rings and media accolade inflates Pippen but the reality is that all the guys you mentioned (Ingram, Hughes, Zydrunas, Kuzma) were prodigies and good right away at much younger ages than 23-year old rookie Pippen.. Ingram in particular was considered an amazing player coming out of college - there's no reason to believe he wouldn't develop into a champion alongside MJ.. Ditto Hughes or Kuzma.

Again, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas received a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball and a HOF coach - MJ obviously 3-peats with that largely because he would fit with Hughes the same way a fellow off-guard did (Arenas), thus illiciting 22/6/5 and 1st team defense out of Hughes.

I don't even know if you are following what's happening. We weren't even talking about Kukoc.

i was under the impression we were talking about team with their international players.
kukoc team was comparable to teams today on the international front
(not the best of them but certainly vs the others right ?)
and those comparable team today almost beat the us team...

Here is another thought.
MattR would have a blast here .
many times we hear the 90s sucked, player at that time were much weaker then 2010-20s players etc etc.

So player in early 1990s sucks way more then present day, but international back then sucked even more !
And today international players are better then the nba players (top 4).

So by that logic, US player that got twice better in the nba compare to the 90s , means what ?
the international players did 4x ( since they started way lower..)?

that 2024 US team isnt just that great, period.
They are old or too green and its a disgrace to compare it to the dream team or to say say the dream team would not be has dominant vs today competition still.

2024 team might be the 2nd greatest team assembled. International players have got better.

Both of these can be true.

Basketball has randomness about it. A lot of variance, particularly with 3 pointers. That's why the USA might not win gold. But if they were all 7 game series, the USA are a lock for gold.

2008
2012

Three-pointers doesn't explain losses in 02', 04', 06', and 6 losses in the last 5 years.

Otoh, the 1-on-1 brand that began after MJ retired does explain why we have drastically underperformed our favored talent since the GOAT's retirement by virtue of many close games and the aforementioned losses that span Jordans post retirement.

If Lebron is the top dog and focus of the team, we've seen him lose 7-game series that seemed like locks, such as the 11' Finals (huge talent edge, similar to these games) or the 09' ECF (-700 favorite) and more.. He lost by record amount 3 times and cannot compete on the championship level (lottery record on the championship level - the "Pistons of the Finals").
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I got nothing to add. The last two posts are perfect.

Or he's just 39. Lebron's peak was 7-15 year ago. Kobe's last year of productive basketball was at age 34 for comparison.

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Rookie George Zidek was 272 pounds but bballref said he was a generic 250:

bballref turned the entire "Bad Boy" front line into lightweights:

* James Edwards is 225 on bballref but 252 in reality:

* Laimbeer is 245 on bballref but 260 in reality:

* Rick Mahorn is 240 on bballref but 255 in reality:

* Dennis Rodman is 6'7" on bballref but 6'8" or taller in reality:

Oakley and Cartwright were similarly deflated on ballref from 245 to 225, and Harper was deflated from 216 to 185 - so everyone thinks all these guys are lightweights when they weren't, hence the many misperceptions, aka "we done with the 90's".

I know you were being sarcastic, but I've finished the "research" (above), and ballref completely guessed.. (and by "research", I mean that I got all those examples by watching about 20 minutes of the intros and the early part of the 1st quarter where the weights are revealed on early FT's.. Another 20 minutes would've revealed just as many more examples as the first 20 minutes).

The conclusion that bballref guessed for the weights of prior eras is based 2 things:

1) examples like George Zidek, who was 272 pounds as a rookie (shown above), but bballref has 7-footers from previous eras capped at 250 - so they just put 250 instead of finding the clearly-available information that he was 272 pounds.. They used other generic weights like 225 for thinner 7-footers like James Edwards (252 in reality), or the same 225 for a bigger 6'9" guy like Oakley (245 in reality).. So the point is that they used this type of generic guessing or equally-generic database of information for players whose careers ended before 2000, and only updated players like Shaq who ended their careers after 2000, aka "we done with the 90's".. It's this mentality that leads to this type of flippant inaccuracy and the resulting misperceptions of about a weak era and lightweight players.

2) Do you think it's more likely that they went back to 1976 information to obtain Dennis Johnson's rookie measurements (whatever they were), or more likely that they simply guessed around 185 or used an equally-generic database of information??.. It must be the latter... (Johnson weighed 202, shown previously itt)

In addition to previous eras having higher average height and possibly weight too, previous eras had similar athleticism that was blunted due to the inability to travel and carry like today's players, which allows more momentum towards the rim and more athletic plays.. Dr. J had goat athleticism going right but he was taking an extra dribble to slow him down - no gather step..

Here's a modern gather-step dunk in the state title game from the Ben Wilson era, circa 1984 Chicago - it was called a travel but we know this is just standard gather-step today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sKKzyXn6qk&t=22m29s

YouTube

FULL Benji Wilson Basketball Game: 1984 IHSA State Championship Final - Chicago (Simeon) vs Evanston

fallguy just showing that everyone was fatter and slower back in the day.

Self own.

More sarcasm I see, but the best players in today's game are fat like Jokic or Luka.. It reminds people of Magic and Bird, except Magic/Bird are better than Jokic/Luka because they developed in a tougher format of no spacing, physicality, and packed paints (no modern defensive 3).. This required superior instincts, passing/threading needles, touch in traffic, and polished moves/fundamentals (go-to moves that get good shots pretty much every time regardless of spacing situation).

Btw, MJ has a Usain Bolt physique and documented 4.3 speed, while Lebron looks like a bumbling, uncoordinated snail by comparison - he isn't quick or lithe enough to chase Klay off screens, or run off screens himself, so he's can't play or defend the shooting guard position.. He isn't quick enough to play off-ball at an elite level, which hurts his team's capacity for ball movement, strategy/coaching, chemistry and ultimately, team ceiling/Finals record.

Curry did what Jokic did by developing an organic juggernaut with "normal" rosters or 1 franchise player, but then Lebron came along with "super-teams" of 3 franchise players plucked from 3 different teams.. Then he gets credit for winning with this super-team and preseason favorite (favored talent) against Curry's "normal" roster??.. This makes no sense.. That would be like Jokic facing a sudden rival consisting of SGA/Ant/Bam - then SGA gets down 1-3 and people call him goat for it (after a teammate bails out the series).

MJ has better production rate (stats) than Lebron in:

PPG, OREB, SPG, BPG, TOV, FT%, possessions used (usage), efficiency per possession (ORTG), PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, raptor, plus/minus, clutch efficiency, jumpshooting efficiency, team assists (ball movement)

Lebron has better stats than MJ in:

DREB, APG (ball-domination), TS (due to drive-heavy attack, aka less ball movement/less winning)

We know that Americans have the best track and field sprint times, so the average 40-yard time in the NBA would've decreased due to a lower proportion of American players in the current NBA than prior eras... Every time that I turn on a game, I see tall slow euros shooting threes or engaging in massive mismatches on the perimeter - i don't see a quicker player pool today than prior eras... or I see a bunch of caleb martins - exclusively 3-point shooters that are otherwise slow and unathletic - there are scores of these guys in today's league and most of them play the shooting guard position, so MJ would average 50+ for sure, just like everyone says he would from the extra spacing, no physicality and open paint (defensive 3).. imagine MJ playing in a league that mandates the help defense run AWAY from the penetrator after 3 seconds.. lol

Prime LeBron shut down DRose in the playoffs (and took it upon himself to guard him) who was one of the difficult players to guard in the league at the time.

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Evidence that Jordan's switch to point guard in 1989 was a very big deal around the league and "the most celebrated position change in NBA history:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzUT6R2kEpQ&t=2310s

YouTube

NBA 1989/1990 - San Antonio Spurs vs Chicago Bulls [03/02/1990]

Remember that MJ was considered the best PG in the league after just a few games at the position, and this was primarily because he was the first high-scoring ball-dominator in the league since Oscar (30/10/10) and a preview of what would come 30 years later with Lebron, Luka, SGA, Westbrook, etc.

another huge myth....

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2011 ECF

Shots by Rose................... 120
Defended by Lebron'......... 15
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% of shots defended....... 12.5% (spot-duty)


Lebron James................. 25.8 ppg
Chris Bosh...................... 23.2 ppg

Lebron's spot-duty on Rose while not carrying the scoring load or defeating max defensive attention doesn't compare to Jordan being the primary defender on Magic or Drexler while carrying the scoring load/defeating max defensive attention.

It's a well-documented fact that Lebron guarded Courtney Lee in the 2009 ECF to save energy, and the absence of sufficient size to guard Hedo or Lewis tricked off the series as a -700 favorite... That's why it matters that Lebron was able to save energy in the 11' ECF by not being a primary defender like Jordan always was, and not carrying the scoring load like Jordan always did.. History shows that only Jordan played goat offense and defense for an extended period or his entire prime (87-98') - this top level on both sides of the ball requires goat energy.

Btw, in addition to Lebron's refusal to guard his own position in the 09' ECF, the historic upset loss wasn't helped by the fact that lebron had a massive choke in the critical Game 4 with a game-choking 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter - it's impossible for any team to win a close series if the primary ballhandler turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time, as Lebron did in that series (11.5 TO per 48 minutes of clutch-time in that series).

Seeing how curry seem to be pick often on the best team ever , we see how Lebron transform everyone around him better …
Great stats for curry in the olympics for the best shooter , and some dare say , point guard ever ….