LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Kobe was a dick and a rapist.
bravo. excellent.
Anyway. LeBron would have been joining Shaq, Van Excel and Eddie Jones.
By season 2 you can add Fox. Fisher also as a rookie.
I imagine they beat the Bulls in 6 that year.
I mean LeBron probably doesn't **** the bed against the Jazz and score 10ppg at a TS% of 36% like Kobe.
bravo. excellent.
Anyway. LeBron would have been joining Shaq, Van Excel and Eddie Jones.
By season 2 you can add Fox. Fisher also as a rookie.
I imagine they beat the Bulls in 6 that year.
I mean LeBron probably doesn't **** the bed against the Jazz and score 10ppg at a TS% of 36% like Kobe.
you mean like lebron in the 2007 final series ?
3 years older too then kobe .
Kobe was playing 20m per game not 40m like lebron .
I don't hold it against Shaq or Wilt that they ran into better teams in the Finals a few times. Especially Shaq in 2004 when Kobe shot .384 from the floor (4/23 from 3P range) in those Finals, while Shaq averaged 26.6 PPG and nearly 10.8 RPG with a .615 TS%. Wilt was bad in those Finals against the Celtics, but Russell might've just been that damn great.
I don't think Kobe was a bad chemistry guy in general. He just required certain personalities for things to work with his. And when he got that
fwiw it isnt just about finals, shaq got swept with great teams like 6 times...
2007 lebron in the finals shot 4/20 from 3 pts shooting, it ain that much better...
I don't hold it against Shaq or Wilt that they ran into better teams in the Finals a few times. Especially Shaq in 2004 when Kobe shot .384 from the floor (4/23 from 3P range) in those Finals
The goat standard is to WIN with bed-wetting teammates like 38% shooting from Kobe in the 04' Finals or Mo in the 09' ECF... The goat standard is to WIN with that - MJ won with worst-ever efficiency and production from Pippen (see stats above).
So if a player or his fans complain about weak help, then they aren't GOAT, because Jordan had to wom with 19 on 42% from his sidekick for their Finals career, including 2 Finals of 15.7 on 38% and worst-ever efficiency on 3 title runs, with zero clutch responsibility - pippen was mostly a dunker and transition player and lane-clogger.. So Shaq is supposed to easily win no matter what Kobe does - ditto Wilt and Lebron with their all-star sidekicks - this is why all 3 aren't in my top 5, and Bron isn't in my top 10 for this reason, among other reasons..
So again, you're complaining about Kobe's shooting efficiency, but pippen shot 0% on threes in the 93' Finals and 59% on FT's, or 46.9 true shooting overall - this worst-ever efficiency was repeated twice in the 96' and 98' Playoffs (worst shooting splits ever for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - see stats above).... In the 93' Playoffs, Pippen's combination of PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP was the lowest ever for a winning sidekick and truly awful.
Btw, I wasn't just talking about Shaq losing in 04' - I was talking about him getting destroyed in his prime many other times, such as swept a half dozen times in his prime with great help.
The goat standard is to WIN with bed-wetting teammates like 38% shooting from Kobe in the 04' Finals or Mo in the 09' ECF... The goat standard is to WIN with that - MJ won with worst-ever efficiency and production from Pippen (see stats above).
So if a player or his fans complain about weak help, then they aren't GOAT, because Jordan had to wom with 19 on 42% from his sidekick for their Finals career, including 2 Finals of 15.7 on 38% and worst-ever efficiency on 3 title runs, with zero clutch re
Your obsession with selectively getting buckets is annoying.
And then, I show you where Kobe blew a ring by not getting buckets (if he was the best player on the team) and you turn it into a Shaq not being good enough thing. Kobe blew 2008, too, shooting .405 from the floor against the Celtics. I'm not shitting on Kobe. I'm saying that there are such things as unbeatable defenses for moments. The 2004 Pistons, 2008 Celtics, 2007 Spurs.
I'm not saying that LeBron never wet the bed in the Finals. I'm just not judging LeBron or Kobe on a couple of weeks once a year. You talk as if Kobe never sucked on the biggest stage. As if he never ball-dominated/hogged/whatever. As if he wasn't difficult to play with.
Do you not see how you chase your own tail?
As for Wilt, he ran into Russell and lost, maybe because Russell was great enough to shut him down when no one else could? That's not an indictment of Wilt. It's praise for Russell.
Outside of Spo, LeBron's had not-good coaching. Maybe his teams were just outcoached by Pop, Kerr, and Doc in those brief moments of time. I would say Carlisle getting up the zone in 2011 with Chandler anchoring and hiding Dirk was excellent coaching against a Heat team that couldn't shoot.
It's really weird to say that LeBron hasn't performed at a championship level, when the numbers you most frequently use suggest that LeBron's been more valuable in the playoffs and Finals than Kobe.
Finals stats:
LeBron: 28.4/10.2/7.8, .484 FG%, .352 3P%, .731 FT%
Kobe: 25.3/5.7/5.1, .412 FG%, .314. 3P%, .848 FT%
The only value added by Kobe over Bron is FT%, which isn't nothing, as LeBron is more dependent on getting to the line than Kobe because -- sure -- Kobe was a slightly better jumpshooter.
But LeBron was always the better passer, rebounder, and defender, while scoring far more efficiently. Call it downhill, call it whatever you want. You're not talking about skillset; you're talking about aesthetics. And that's fine. But you're a joke as long as you get the two mixed up.
The "down-hill" or high-scoring, ball-dominant skillset isn't top 10 basketball.
It isn't top 10 basketball because it lacks scoring diversity and therefore yields frequent bad fits, zero teammate development (imposes spot-up roles), weak chemistry/brand of ball, and uncoachability/coaching carousal, all of which severely limit team ceiling/Finals records.
Unfortunately, people no longer blame losses on unstoppable individual forces, even though they used to for guys like Shaq and Wilt... It's cle
On the contrary, I think LeBron IS punished for his “brand of ball”, as you put it.
On a pure statistical output level, his peak is close to Jordan. On a longevity level, he’s far ahead. However, his team success metric is lacking.
I agree that team success matters because not all play styles integrate equally well into championship caliber teams. Wilt is probably a perfect example. Some poor playoff results could indeed be variance, but when there’s a pattern there’s a pattern and it’s harder to argue that.
4 rings for someone of LeBron’s skill level is good, but not great. Plus you have those disappointing Magic, Celtics series pre-Miami. 2011. Maybe some Lakers years where their results were mediocre.
This is why LeBron is in the 2-3 GOAT range and not #1. If his playstyle was more suited to winning championships, and he say went 4/4 in Miami, and won those Magic/Celtics series (for example), or had more success in a couple other years, he would be #1 without too much argument.
But to punish him by saying he’s not top 10 isn’t correct — ding him one or maybe two spots but not 10 spots.
you mean like lebron in the 2007 final series ?
3 years older too then kobe .
Kobe was playing 20m per game not 40m like lebron .
You're missing the point. LeBron in year 2 is so much better than Kobe. You're even admitting it yourself in the minutes played.
And now LeBron gets to be a number 2. No pressure. He'd kill it. Imagine if the defense had to focus on Shaq and LeBron would be able to do whatever he wanted. Imagine LeBron feeding Shaq the ball.
And he gets to play against Pippen in the Finals. Fallguy rightfully points out Pippen is the most overrated player of all time and lucky to even make it to the NBA. LeBron would kill him.
I'm thinking I may be overreaching with the Bulls winning 2 games. More likely 1.
You're missing the point. LeBron in year 2 is so much better than Kobe. You're even admitting it yourself in the minutes played.
And now LeBron gets to be a number 2. No pressure. He'd kill it. Imagine if the defense had to focus on Shaq and LeBron would be able to do whatever he wanted. Imagine LeBron feeding Shaq the ball.
And he gets to play against Pippen in the Finals. Fallguy rightfully points out Pippen is the most overrated player of all time and lucky to even make it to the NBA. LeBron w
Big men like Hakeem, Ewing or Shaq need secondary options that are shooters, so bricklayers like young 2nd-year Lebron, Westbrook, or Pippen are essentially a "bad Westbrick fit" and don't work, as Pippen describes here:
"That's not fitting for a guy like Westbrook when Harden has the ball all the time because Westbrook isn't a spot-up shooter... I dealt with that situation in Houston the year that I went there - they wanted me to be a 3-point shooter and watch Hakeem and Charles post up, but I was never comfortable or familiar being a spot-up shooter - that's the reason that I didn't fit in with the Rockets."
Similarly, a young, bricklaying, ball-dominator like "lottery Lebron" in 2005 (who was lottery with the East all-star center on his team) or a 35% player like 07' or 08' Lebron - they wouldn't get anywhere near a title like young Kobe did at the same age.. Young Kobe was a do-it-all player on the offensive end with expert jumpshooting skill to dominate within the triangle, aka no ball-domination.. This is why he fit with big men and MET EXPECTATION with shaq or pau, while Lebron turned bigs like Bosh/Love/Pau into role players and underachieved with AD (1/5 so far and mostly a lottery team, aka play-in).
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Post up big man basketball was the worst form of basketball ever. Glad that's over.
Funny you didn't mention Kareem and Magic.
Thank MJ for that.. One of the many doubts that he overcame was people saying that a shooting guard and perimeter player like Jordan couldn't carry a team to titles, nor could a scoring champ... lol
And the original point was that big-man basketball will always be part of the game, and it's just another form that Lebron doesn't fit well with given his reduction of bigs and/or underachievement with Zydrunas/Jamison/Bosh/Love/AD/Kuzma... In addition to not fitting with bigs, he also doesn't fit with the large swathe of players that are similar to himself, aka ball-handlers that aren't elite shooters, which caused drastically-underperforming fits with Hughes, Ingram, Westbrook, Clarkson, Wade and more..
It's intuitive that players handle the ball more as they get shorter, so if one of the bigs is dominating the ball, then there's nothing for the smaller guys to do.. (imagine how the Spurs would "need more help" and struggle with weak Finals records if Duncan was somehow a ball-dominator that turned everyone into spot-up shooter instead of a fundamental big like Jokic that promoted great chemistry to win with less).
In addition to the inherently suboptimal nature of a big man dominating the ball like he's a guard (Lebron's game), another core argument against Lebron and everyone in history is that everyone wants "more help" when KAT, Mo Williams or Murray get 18 on 40%, however the GOAT standard is to win with that - MJ three-peated with Pippen getting 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and many victories over top teams and Finals wins with 16 on 40% from Pippen.. Even when Pippen was getting 20 ppg during the 1st three-peat, that's complete trash when AD does that and it was considered trash when Wade did that in the 13' Finals and 14' ECF.
Kuzma a big now.
Guys like Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Carmelo, Ewing, etc played entire careers without winning a chip.
Lebron wins a chip with AD, and a chip with Love, and 2 chips with Bosh. But yeah just bad fit with everyone sure bro.
Guys like Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Carmelo, Ewing, etc played entire careers without winning a chip.
Lebron wins a chip with AD, and a chip with Love, and 2 chips with Bosh. But yeah just bad fit with everyone sure bro.
ITT Larry Hughes, Antawn Jamison, and Mo Williams are HOF, though. And LeBron didn't win a chip before Miami.
Unfortunately, Kuzma and Ingram saw a 1-year drop across the board alongside Lebron in 2019 (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).
He's a tweener but he's just another guy that Lebron destroyed - Kuzma was a 12 ppg player and his career was going to be NOTHING until he escaped to Washington.. He's currently trying to recapture his previous "budding star" trajectory (see above) and he's at 23 ppg so far.. But imagine if he never escaped Lebron-ball!!!... What a travesty that would've been - he would've been like Pippen would've been alongside Lebron, or like Hughes was - a NOBODY (spot-up shooter) and career destroyed.
Everyone thought of Love's dominance and trajectory the same way we thought of Luka a couple years ago.
Guys like Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Ewing, etc played entire careers without wwinning a chip.
Lebron wins a chip with AD, and a chip with Love, and 2 chips with Bosh. But yeah just bad fit with everyone sure bro.
U serious?... Malone, Barkley, and Ewing didn't win chips because they didn't team up with each other.
Lebron joining AD or Love is like Barkley joining Malone and then mostly losing.. Imagine Barkley and Malone going 2/9, which is Lebron's record with Love and AD so far.. And Lebron joining Wade is like Ewing joining Jordan or Drexler and then mostly losing.. Starks can't be compared to Wade, Westbrook or Kyrie, plus other stars.
So the important point is that Lebron mostly lost at every stop and regardless of who we put around him.. That's the fate of the high-scoring, ball-dominant skillset - it imposes spot-up roles and weak chemistry, so it mostly loses regardless of cast.. It isn't capable of "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches, such as Curry winning 3 in 4 years, or Duncan winning 3 in 5, or MJ winning 6 in 7, etc...
Btw, Malone ran into MJ, but he otherwise had the same peak as Lebron from 1997 to 1999 by virtue of 3 straight MVP's and 3 straight 1st team defense (edit: 2nd to MJ in 98').. Also, Malone had a 2-star team that played the GOAT Bulls to a near-stalemate, which is better than Lebron's 3-star team getting destroyed by record amount to the Spurs & Warriors, or his 2-star team swept twice by the Nuggets.. Or his historic favorites getting beat in 09', 10' and 11'.
So the way you're thinking about the game and these issues is wrong on literally every front.. Just reverse everything you think and you'll be fine.
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A long-lost clip that was deleted from youtube by Klutch Sports - it shows Kenny Smith perfectly explaining why MJ's path and achievement was the best:
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The following was required in 1992 to sweep a 1st Round opponent and show no weakness as defending champs:
The proper perspective that young fans should have about MJ is to look at the 1998 Finals, which is a good example because many young fans have some knowledge and/or remember this series.
the point is that EVERY series was like the 98' Finals, as far as the goat stats, 2nd half and 4th quarter domination, heroics and statistical gap between MJ and his cast.
This includes the sweeps (shown above or
for example), let alone the 6 or 7-game series, which show similar heroics and massive gaps in stats between MJ and his cast.. Only the GOAT carried this load on offense, so MJ's goat defense further separates him (1st team defense every year including a runner-up DPOY, DPOY, and no worse than 7th from 88' to 98' plus scoring champ, aka goat peak and goat longevity of peak).
Maybe fallguy is eppipen
Pundits said "more help needed" when KAT, Mo, Kyrie and Murray "wet the bed" with 18 on 40%....but true goats must LEARN TO WIN WITH THAT.
the goat won with his sidekick averaging 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 15.7 on 40% in 2 Finals, or 0% on threes and 59% FT's in the 93' Finals (46.9 TS), along with the 93' Playoffs showing the worst combination of PER/BPM/WS/VORP of any winning sidekick ever.. Pippen also had the worst shooting splits in 3-pointer history for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG, and he did this twice on TITLE runs, for goodness sake (96', 98')
Accordingly, the GOAT standard is to routinely beat top teams with weak help, such as beating top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring & efficiency a sidekick and also defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship/Finals level).. Guys like Luka must learn to win with this kind of bed-wetting from Brunson or Kyrie... tldr: the "pippen" isn't the savior - he's the guy whose bed-wetting is GETTING saved/carried.
Maybe fallguy is Jordan's AI bot and it's borderline passing the Turring Test.
