LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

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CAREER FINALS

Jordan'..... 34 ppg... 6.0 apg... 2.8 TO.. 48%.. goat clutch
Pippen..... 19 ppg... 5.9 apg... 3.3 TO.. 42%.. zero clutch (worst-ever)

CAREER PLAYOFFS WITH BULLS

Jordan'..... 33 ppg... 5.7 apg... 3.1 TO.. 49%
Pippen..... 18 ppg... 5.3 apg... 2.9 TO.. 45%

There's never been a bigger gap between 1st and 2nd option or a bigger example of a teammate getting carried to chips and garnering media accolade from the winning spotlight...

On another team, 19 on 42% would be "just another guy" in the NBA, but when the GOAT is dragging that crap to titles, then it's considered all-time.

People claim that "scoring isn't everything", except that's the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed, aside from the GOAT.. Everyone in history needed teammates to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led his sidekick by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES.. So MJ is the only guy in history that was forced to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) in every series.. (edit: there are 3 series where MJ led his sidekick by 9, 8 and 4 pts).

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................................PPG for #1 scorer..... PPG for #2 scorer..... Difference


1985 Round 1:........... Jordan 29.3............... Woolrige 20.5................ 8.8

1986 Round 1:........... Jordan 43.7............... Woolrige 21.0.............. 22.7

1987 Round 1:........... Jordan 35.7............... C Oakley 20.0.............. 15.7

1988 Round 1:........... Jordan 45.2............... C Oakley 10.8.............. 34.4
1988 Round 2:........... Jordan 27.4............... C Oakley 12.8................ 4.6

1989 Round 1:........... Jordan 39.8............... S Pippen 15.0.............. 25.0
1989 Round 2:........... Jordan 35.7............... S Pippen 14.8.............. 20.9
1989 Round 3:........... Jordan 29.7............... C Hodges 12.0............. 17.7

1990 Round 1:........... Jordan 36.8............... S Pippen 22.5.............. 14.3
1990 Round 2:........... Jordan 43.0............... S Pippen 20.8.............. 22.2
1990 Round 3:........... Jordan 32.1............... S Pippen 16.6.............. 15.5

1991 Round 1:........... Jordan 29.0............... S Pippen 19.7................ 9.3
1991 Round 2:........... Jordan 33.4............... S Pippen 23.4.............. 10.0
1991 Round 3:........... Jordan 29.8............... S Pippen 22.0................ 7.8
1991 Round 4:........... Jordan 31.2............... S Pippen 20.8.............. 10.4

1992 Round 1:........... Jordan 45.0............... S Pippen 24.0.............. 21.0
1992 Round 2:........... Jordan 31.3............... S Pippen 16.0.............. 15.3
1992 Round 3:........... Jordan 31.7............... S Pippen 19.8.............. 11.9
1992 Round 4:........... Jordan 35.8............... S Pippen 20.8.............. 15.0

1993 Round 1:........... Jordan 34.3............... S Pippen 15.3.............. 19.0
1993 Round 2:........... Jordan 31.0............... S Pippen 18.3.............. 12.7
1993 Round 3:........... Jordan 32.2............... S Pippen 22.5................ 9.8
1993 Round 4:........... Jordan 31.0............... S Pippen 21.2.............. 19.8

1995 Round 1:.......... Jordan 32.3............... T Kukocs 17.3.............. 15.0
1995 Round 2:.......... Jordan 31.0............... S Pippen 19.0.............. 12.0

1996 Round 1:.......... Jordan 30.0............... S Pippen 19.7.............. 10.3
1996 Round 2:.......... Jordan 36.0............... S Pippen 15.6.............. 20.4
1996 Round 3:.......... Jordan 29.5............... S Pippen 18.5.............. 11.0
1996 Round 4:.......... Jordan 27.3............... S Pippen 15.7.............. 11.6

1997 Round 1:.......... Jordan 37.3............... S Pippen 16.7.............. 20.6
1997 Round 2:.......... Jordan 26.6............... S Pippen 22.2................ 4.4
1997 Round 3:.......... Jordan 30.2............... S Pippen 16.8.............. 17.4
1997 Round 4:.......... Jordan 32.3............... S Pippen 20.0.............. 12.3

1998 Round 1:.......... Jordan 36.3............... S Pippen 18.0.............. 18.3
1998 Round 2:.......... Jordan 29.6............... S Pippen 17.8.............. 11.8
1998 Round 3:.......... Jordan 31.7............... S Pippen 16.6.............. 15.1
1998 Round 4:.......... Jordan 33.5............... S Pippen 15.7.............. 17.8
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................................................................................. ........................15.4 average difference

^^^ MJ led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every series (15.4 average margin), while Lebron and everyone else in history needed teammates to lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs - Wade led Lebron in scoring for the 2011 Playoffs, while AD led for the 2020 Playoffs and Kyrie nearly matched Lebron in 2016 Playoffs.

MJ's ability to carry the scoring load allowed him to win the most with the least - i.e. he's the only player in history to have dynasties without another franchise player on his team, or go-to player, or 3rd scoring option, or 3rd all-star..

Since expert jumpshooters can drop 40 while the ball moves (sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams), they can effectively carry the scoring load to beat top teams and therefore win with less scoring help such as non-franchise guys at sidekick like Klay, Pippen, Wiggins, Pau Kyle Lowry or Jason Terry... This is clearly a lower level of help that expert jumpshooters need compared to the franchise players that ball-dominators need (kareem, AD, wade, kyrie plus franchise guys at 3rd option too)

Start at 9m 45 for this specific subject.
How bitter time can make someone else change his mind by pure ego ?

Regardless, this was during Thomas peak era and the MJ narrative he wasnt “good enough” to win a championship before goat pippen and coach Jackson came in .

Seem before even his first ring mj was already recognize as being “pretty good” -> BY FAR !

It’s not nostalgia it’s just people get Alzheimer’s sometimes to think MJ isn’t the goat .

MJ choked vs Shaq and the Magic in 1995.

Lol yes I love your power of analysis .

Mj choke playing 31 ppg 6 rbn 3 assit .
But I agree for mj having slightly better stats then career LeBron is choking for him !

We surely should not say goat pippen had 7 point in game 1 and 10 pts in game 5 !
Or to say grant being number 3 on his team was as good as pippen being number 2 on his team .

Pippen 19ppg 9rbn 5 assit .
Grant 18ppg 11 rbn 1assit .

Basically Jordan almost beat magic without a number 2 after having play 17 regular season games in 2 years .
So mj choked a loss vs shaq because he played like he play his entire career 30 ppg 6 rbn 5 assit to a messily 31ppg 6rbn 3 assit during that series..
That is a big choke from mj i give u that .
Certainly not pippen because pippen is the goat !!!

Ha yes we must hide the fact only LeBron can make excuses for failure in play offs because of his teammates , it never happens to MJ with pippen ……

They lose if Allen misses but the game was tied when Irving hit his three. We'll never know if they win or lose if he misses, but their win percentage doesnt drop to 0 in a tied game if he misses with 55 or so seconds left. Him and Lebron played out of their minds for 3 straight games to beat a 73-10 team but yea no credit for Lebron is deserved and they magically lose the game if that shot misses.

The 98 Bulls by the way lose if Kukoc doesn't bail out both Pippen and Jordan in game 7 vs the Pacers. Of course that sham documentary that Jordan had creative control over doesn't even mention Kukoc that game despite the fact they spent a lot of time on that game specifically. Oh but it wasn't game 7 of the finals so it doesn't count even though they don't win the championship if they lose that game.

I think Jordan is better than Lebron btw, but the mental gymnastics people use to trash Lebron are really amusing. I don't mention ECF game to trash Jordan either. But just to point out that yea sometimes a guy wins a championship and he had some help along the way. That goes for anyone. Let's not pretend Jordan was carrying some CBA team to championships.

What's also funny is when Jordan passes to an open Kerr or Paxon and they hit they hit the shot he gets credit. When Lebron would set up wide open Kyle Korver types and they miss at the end of the game he'd get criticized for passing to the open player.

it's a fact that Lebron never scored on the last possession of a 1-possession game in the Finals (0-10).. So I'm not sure how many buckets he has with 55 seconds left but probably not that many - he lacks expert jumpshooting skill and "bag" to get off clutch-time shots without extended live dribble.. Fortunately for him, his teammate is a historic clutch performer with all-time bag, fantastic jumpshooting skill and assassin mentality..

This is what "passers" like Lebron and Magic need - they need all-time scoring help and "closers" like Kyrie, FMVP Kareem, FMVP Wade or "Big Game" James Worthy (FMVP)... This is why ball-domination is a lesser way to play the game (needs more scoring help), rather than expert jumpshooters that 1) facilitate constant ball movement and superior brand of ball to win with chemistry rather than needing more help/talent 2) carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat top teams and 3) "close" themselves (don't need closer).

I remember Kukoc having mini-personal runs in key stretches and maybe he did that in Game 7 of 98' ECF - I would have to re-watch to see - I seem to remember MJ making every play down the stretch of that 4th quarter (mostly playmaking and FT's), but I might be overlooking a classic Kukoc hot streak earlier in the 4th quarter or 2nd half.. I am aware that Kukoc was the 2nd-leading scorer (ahead of pippen) in the 4th quarter and clutch-time for the entire 98' Playoffs, while also being the real 2nd option in the 96' Finals as well (several hot streaks in key stretches).. It's true that Pippen was mostly a transition player/dunker/hustler, so Kukoc was the real "go-to" player after Jordan on the 2nd three-peat teams.

However, Kukoc was still just a role-player - he wasn't anywhere near a star or elite producer and the fact that Jordan could 3-peat with a few mini-hot-streaks from kukoc while the actual sidekick had worst-ever efficiency is why he's goat.. Pippen did infact have the worst shooting splits ever for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG - this happened twice and they were title runs in 96' and 98' - espn stats here.. Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs and practically never shot above league average TS during playoff runs in his career.

Washington Post on Scottie Pippen in June 1996

CHICAGO -- We've passed this way before with Scottie Pippen. In 1989, in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals against the Pistons, a Bill Laimbeer elbow finished him off early as the Bulls were eliminated. In 1990, in Game 7 of the conference finals against the Pistons, when what he called a migraine headache impaired his vision, he turned to Jell-O, and Michael Jordan had to basically go it alone, unsuccessfully. Two years ago, down two games to none with 1.8 seconds left in Game 3 against the Knicks, Pippen just said no to a play designed for him to inbound the ball and Toni Kukoc to shoot it with the season on the line. Pippen sat, Kukoc scored, the basketball world shook its head in disbelief. And now here he is, in the middle of an absolutely dreadful series against Seattle in the NBA Finals, trying to get ahold of his game, as those old whispers grow loud once more.

You know the whispers: Scottie's soft in the big games, Scottie can't handle the pressure. The best players in the league used to laugh behind his back, some in his face. Is it fair? Maybe. "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/s...

They weren't a CBA team but the 1991 team was the exact same "crap" roster from 1989 except Pippen/BJ improved 4 ppg by 91' (Grant none).

So the cast was never beating the world statistically yet they won at goat levels due to developed chemistry and brand of ball.. And this goat chemistry demonstrates why MJ is goat - history shows that scoring or usage champions are never good enough to play championship brand of ball (win titles) - only the GOAT was good enough to undertake the league's biggest burden (scoring or usage leader) while still playing a championship brand of ball (win titles).

The Bulls are the only dynasty that lacked an elite scorer or FMVP at 2nd option, and also the only dynasty that lacked a 3rd scorer or 3rd all-star.. Anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to average 25 or win FMVP for at least 1 of those Finals, except MJ won 6 without any teammate getting 25 or FMVP.

Of course, Pippen's underwhelming caliber can be seen in many ways - he's 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals (and without the clutch shooting or spacing), so it was a low bar to match Pippen's transition player/dunker/hustler caliber (worst clutch player of all-time - completely unavailable - Andre Roberson in the 4th quarter basically).

You have to take a bird's eye view of this thing rather than be results-oriented.

There's a reason that Lebron's teammates brick last-second shots and MJ's don't.. It isn't coincidence and it's driven by 2 factors that are intuitive and stats-based:

1) Lebron's poor clutch efficiency rubs off on teammates, whereas MJ's regular efficiency and clutch efficiency were the same (icewater), which rubs off on teammates

2) Lebron's brand of ball (ball-dominance, aka drive-and-kick) yields less in-the-flow jumpshots than MJ's brand of ball (ball movement) - notice how the Paxson shot was in the flow of ball movement.. Otoh, Bron's teammates get a high-pressure-cooker bailout pass that players simply can't hit as often as in-the-flow shots that result from years of chemistry development (not Lebron's mercenary approach, aka talent-based winning vs chemistry-based/organic)..

btw, Lebron's need to undertake a talent-based approach rather than build chemistry is skillset-based - his abnormal ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players and chemistry, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)

Jordan has an actual track record of great fits and teammates playing to capacity alongside him (near career highs), or developing single-digit rookies into meaningful producers (Pip, BJ, Grant), while Lebron never developed any young players and has a significant record of bad fits or teammates playing far below capacity alongside his ball-dominance.

lebron's ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).

So again, take a bird's eye view by understanding that unlike Curry, MJ or Kobe, lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill and has abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position, which has predictable ramifications on brand of ball (imposing spot-up roles) - this restricts teammate development, chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding perennial underdogs and Finals losers regardless of cast..

And his style as a ball-dominant passer requires great scoring help - i.e. he's too ball-dominant at 38 ppg and loses with 18 on 38% from Mo Williams, so he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (insufficient brand at carry-job volume to have carry-jobs vs top teams).. Otoh, MJ's expert jumpshooting style had sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he could carry the scoring load vs top 5 SRS teams and win with weak scoring help like 18 on 38% from Mo or Pippen (or even much less).. Ultimately, expert jumpshooters can drop 40 while the ball moves and win with less scoring help like Klay, Pau, Pippen or Wiggins as 2nd option instead of franchise players like ball-dominators need (kareem, wade, AD, Kyrie).
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The only stat that matters in the playoffs is a W.

Jordan if he were the GOAT wouldn't have been eliminated by a baby Shaq and a "Lil' Penny"

That was a great team. Would love to know the alternate universe where Shaq stayed in Orlando.

and throw in Penny staying healthy. They probably become a dynasty. Heck they were good enough to beat the Rockets in 1995. They had game 1 "won" but Nick Anderson had that free throws missing debacle and that totally killed their mojo for the rest of the series.

Well Baby shaq or not , he still won the scoring championship that year and All-NBA second team nba supported by 2 good players :
Penny Hardaway All-NBA 1st team
Horace grant All-NBA defensive second team and great rebounder.

That team was pretty good and when u have that pippen character (or lack of) failing again being a suppose All-NBA 1st team and yet having 2 miserable game of 7 and 10 pts wtf can anybody do ?

I agree mj lost but saying that he chocked …come on !
It’s just another example that mj got teammates as well that failed him too .
That narrative isn’t confine to lebron alone, all superstars got some years hard failure due to outside factors out of their control.

meh, doubt they beat the Bulls next few years and Shaq leaves anyway

Penny started getting injured shortly after Shaq left too, then eventually left on his own in '99

the 30 for 30 on that team is pretty good though

swept after gm 1 loss, then swept the next year (granted Horace got inj gm 1) by the Bulls

obviously 90s awards you probably can find some pretty lol things

but how does Nick Anderson at 30 years old randomly come in 4th for most improved player in '97-98?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awa...

always been known as an emerging young guy award

1995 2nd Round

Pippen......... 19 on 40%

^^^ When did Lebron beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick?

Literally never.. zero carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams)

Otoh, Jordan usually beats top teams despite crap from Pippen, but apparently not after a couple years playing pro baseball and coming back suddenly

But otherwise Jordan routinely beat top 5 SRS teams with 16 on 40% from Pippen such as the 98' ECF, 97' ECF, 96' Finals, 98' Finals, or 89' 1st Round.. Imagine Lebron beating a Finals team with 16 on 40% from AD (rich man's Pippen) and zero clutch or spacing..

Ultimately, Lebron has never carried bed-wetting teammates over a top 5 SRS or Finals teams.. He was too ball-dominant in the 09' ECF for example, while also having his first goat-level choke with 7 TO's in the 4th quarter of Game 4 that swung the series.. Then he melted down in 2010 and 2011 - these 3 consecutive upset losses made oddsmakers skittish heading into the 12' Finals, so the veteran super-team Heat were underdogs to baby Westbrick.

Lebron needs AD to dominate, while MJ could beat top 5 SRS or Finals teams with Pippen wetting the bed.

Ultimately, only Lebron had sidekicks that outplayed league MVP's like Kyrie outplaying Curry, or AD over Jokic, or Wade outplaying Dirk.. Only Lebron this kind of sidekick help, or franchise players at 3rd option - the Cavs had 3 franchise players vs 1 for the Warriors (Curry), which is why the 15' and 16' Cavs were the preseason favorite..

It was rare for Lebron to win as the preseason favorite like he did in 2016, since he lost as the preseason favorite in 2021, 2014, and 2011, while having upset losses or getting locked up or swept from 07-10'.. His teams actually fell from preseason favorite to underdog or loser from 2011-2016 (except the Allen miracle), so history shows that his weak brand of ball and chemistry underachieves favored talent (preseason favorites)..

His ball-dominance and imposition of spot-up roles can't win with chemistry, so he always needs more help/talent - after 2010, he gave up on climbing the organic learning curve (chemistry) and started teaming up with opposing franchise players thereafter (talent-based winning, all-star team strategy).. So he never learned how to win (organic, chemistry) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning).
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More Pippen knocking. Jordan gets no titles without him. It's so commonly said that MJ couldn't win or come close to winning as a one man show, then he gets a critical teammate that helps him win 6 and it's basically Pippen sucks and MJ is a one man show. Go figure. It's bullshyt.

LeBron guys do the same to Wade, Kyrie, Davis etc. Go figure. It's bullshyt.

In 80s-90s NBA, Luka scores 40 a game and dominates everybody. He has the body. He's like a large Magic-Charles Barkley blend with good shooting and passing. Hell, Barkley was almost as good as MJ back then and he's not half the player Luka is.

Jokic not so different from Kareem.

For thos who are too young to remember him live, MJ was basically Antman.

Kids in this thread don't remember when there were serious debates about whether MJ was as good as Nique or Drexler.

I'd rather have Nique than Jordan as a team owner. Nique had that BOX OFFICE quality.

Nique better dunker than Jordan.

Drexler was also an amazing dunker.

And how much u think prime mj would do today lol….

Here’s a thought .
From 1985 to 2004 , 8 games of 60 pts + by a player been made .
In the last 13 month 9 games been made over 60 pts by a player.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Na....

Since 1960 , only 15 games 70+ happened and 4 of them happened in the last 13 month (26% of games).

Last year u had 6 players averaging 30+ per game ….

Comparing today games with when actually D was playing in prior years is ludicrous ….

Ps: 1993 mj vs Barkley final

Mj 41ppg 8.5rbn 6.3ast
Barkley 24ppg 13rbn 5ast

Nah , each time there was a semblance of debate vs Barkley , Drexler or w.e , mj just went crushing them in the final .

Dominique is Vince Carter tier in dunking.

No one ever received a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg and said "We're set!!!... Dynasty incoming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

That never happened ever in the history of the world.

MJ is simply punished for winning with the first all-star that he received and never needing another one, while everyone else is praised for needing many all-stars and continuing to need more all-stars.

History shows that MJ would've won earlier and easier with a ready-made player like Worthy instead of Pippen being trash for 3 straight years.. Even Robert Horry was a starter in Year 1 and a sidekick-champion by Year 2, and played better in the Finals than Pippen ever did in Year 3... So many guys would've helped MJ win earlier and easier... Heck, the 19 year old Andrew Wiggins averaged 17-24 ppg right away, while 23-year old Pippen averaged 8 ppg... Or MJ would turn someone like Kuminga into a top 30 all-time player - that's who Pippen was - he was Kuminga (a dunker with defensive potential).

1993 Finals

Bulls............ 106.7 ppg.... 113.0 ORTG
Suns............ 106.7 ppg.... 113.0 ORTG

^^^ so all of Jordan's 41 ppg was needed, especially with Pippen's 46% true shooting (couldn't handle additional load).

Team defense is irrelevant because it's never been used to offset a 1-man show on offense.. For example, the Cavs' defense kept them close against the 08' Celtics, yet Lebron's 26 on 35% is still credited with "carrying" the team.. Similarly, even though the 90's Bulls played good defense, it was still a 1-man show because of what happened on the offensive end of the floor - MJ was carrying the load far more than anyone ever had..

If a team needs 41 ppg from the star, or if they need the star to average 10-30 more than all teammates in every series, then it's a 1-man show BY DEFINITION (1 guy carrying the offensive load).

Jordan's 6 titles were 1-man shows - the numbers clearly show that and that's the point of showing Pippen's garbage stats from series to series - Jordan won 6 titles with an Andre Iguodala or Larry Nance-level player at sidekick, but the winning spotlight inflated this to all-time status and media accolade..

This isn't opinion - it's the historical and statistical record - Pippen never played better than Larry Nance.. Heck, he never even reached peak-Horry level in the Finals (0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals)..

The reality is that the 89' Bulls were considered a garbage cast and the 1991 cast was exactly the same except Pippen and BJ improved 4 ppg (Grant none).. So Jordan was always carrying a thin cast that won via goat chemistry and brand of ball development (which wouldn't be possible if MJ was a ball-dominator that imposed spot-up roles like Lebron - the triangle isn't possible with Lebron, so Pippen is nothing alongside Lebron - Pippen said himself that he's nothing in a spot-up role like he was in Houston (video here).

Not sure your point here - each team must provide 5 players on the floor to have an NBA basketball game, so of course Jordan can't win with only 4 guys on the court

Now if we're replacing Pippen with another SF that was solid right away like Worthy, Andrew Wiggins or Horry, then MJ wins earlier and easier.. He doesn't lose to the 88' Pistons with "Bad Boy Killer" Worthy instead of Pippen.. Jordan easily 3-peats from 88-90' with Worthy instead of Pippen, or any number of replacements for Pippen..

Heck, if the prime version of MJ had numerous years to build with Woolridge, then he could've won with Woolridge... Pippen was simply the lucky, low-producing choker that got the free ride by landing alongside the GOAT entering his prime.