LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

When I point out how Ant averaged 18.7 on 30% and you respond with a stretch where MJ averaged 10 more points on better efficiency, this means you lost the argument.

The same goes for anyone pointing to Jordan averaging 5 more points on better efficiency in garbage time - the last 3 games of the 96' Finals - a series that he already clinched by averaging 31 on 46% to get a 3-0 lead.. His performance in Game 3 is underrated - the most important game of the series and MJ made sure to end it.

Curry won 3 chips in 4 years, or Duncan won 3 in 5, or Kobe and MJ 3-peated, while Lebron never had a stretch where he mostly won with a cast and mostly lost with every cast.. 21 years proved that he mostly loses, regardless of cast.

So when you guys brag that Lebron won with 3 different types of co-stars, you're misguided because he underachieved with 3 different types of co-stars by never having a stretch of mostly winning with any cast, while also losing with favored talent such as preseason favorites, homecourt advantage or 2 all-star teammates... Lebron was literally destroyed with each co-star, such as record loss or sweep loss.

So when did winning once and then getting demolished every other year or being a perennial underdog and loser with favored talent (preseason favorites) a goat-caliber level and something to brag about?.. Again, 21 years confirms that Lebron mostly loses (loses most years), regardless of cast.

Still doesn't mean that he wasn't bad.

fyi

1) Lebron needed teammates that made the Finals without him (Wade, Kyrie), or he needed to be 2nd option to AD (AD led Lakers in scoring for 2020 RS & PO)

2) Lebron never won a title as 1st option without 2 perennial all-stars as teammates and also sidekicks that made the Finals without him.,

3) Lebron underachieved expectation with every co-star that he teamed up with, such as going 1/5 with AD, or 1/4 with Love or Wade (except the Allen miracle) - this is underachievement with every cast that he ever had (mostly losing with every cast)

MJ faced the greatest defensive attention, yet the worst performance that you could find was still 10 points more than the person he's being compared to...

this demonstrates his goatness.. everyone wet the bed except him.. he wasn't capable of playing "badly" by the standard that everyone else had.. Jordan's worst play wouldn't be considered "bad" if it were someone else - if Ant was averaging 28 on 33%, no one would be saying he's playing "badly" given that many people are defending his 19 on 30%.. They especially wouldn't be knocking Ant if he had zero help like MJ had - MJ didn't have a 4x DPOY or a sidekick that made All-NBA on his own (unlike Pippen, KAT made several All-NBA without winning titles first), nor did MJ have additional studs like McDaniels or Conley and others.

Luka is so clearly the best player in the NBA right now. The points he creates for teammates with secondary setup passes are ridiculous.

Luka will lose in the Finals and therefore have low team ceilings because he's just a ball-dominator - his brand of ball is "down-hill", which isn't 5-man basketball and cannot develop the great chemistry needed for great-performing casts, aka great teams.

So he will have a weak Finals record beginning this season when he loses to expert jumpshooter Tatum..

Tatum's skillset allows the ball to move, so if I'm starting a team, I would take Tatum all day long because his game has the stable chemistry to develop over time.. He didn't need a bunch of upheavals like Luka had with Porzingas, Brunson and now Kyrie..

Ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron impose spot-up roles, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).

If there's anything Tatum does better on offense than Luka then it's most definitely not jumpshooting - Luka has a better FG% from every distance than Tatum does on a significantly higher number of attempts overall. Luka is the better jumpshooter by pretty much any metric you could come up with.

Can Luka live off a double pin down?

I rest my case

Luka is a ball-dominator, which isn't an expert jumpshooter..

In addition to coming off screens, Tatum routinely catches the ball at the elbow and squares up against his man from the triple-threat - then he just pops a jumper without even dribbling... These things are expert jumpshooting that allow the ball to move.

Ball-dominant jumpshooting isn't expert jumpshooting and yields weaker chemistry - we'll see it first hand in this year's Finals when the Celtics with 3 straight games to close out the Mavs (they will figure out Luka-ball just like opponents figured out Bron-ball and won the last 3 games of basically every series that he lost)

Ok I stand corrected, if you decide to define jump shooting in a way that doesn't mean how good they are at taking jump shots then I guess you can come up with a way in which Tatum could be a better jump shooter.

And to be clear, Tatum doesn't even take many catch-and-shoot shots. He averages 2.5 a game to Luka's 2.0, and 2.2 of them are from 3 so the idea that he's taking lots of elbow jumpers without dribbling is, as so often, complete nonsense.

I sympathize with your point, but it shouldn't be omitted that LeBron overachieved in both runs with the Cavs.

Nothing against Luka. He's one of the best players to watch, if not the most fun, but I don't see how you can place him over Jokic yet.

What are your thoughts of the Mavs always outplaying their seeding?

You know, if Celtics beat the Mavs it will be most likely because Celtics have more of the better players than the Mavs. Not because Tatum > Luka.

Doesn't mean he wasn't bad.

Yep, Jordan really carried those scrubs when it counted. If his teammates hadn't finished the job for him he probably would've retired again right away.

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When I watched Anthony Edwards walking up and down the court all tired and dragging his feet, I wondered how anyone could compare him to MJ just based on the walk alone and inferior physique

Luka averaged 30 to get the Mavs a 3-0 lead and clinch this series

Accordingly, no one would care if Luka took his foot off the gas and averaged 24 on 37% in garbage time for the next 3 games.. this is especially true if his sidekick averaged 13 on 29% over the same period.

Kyrie IS the difference-maker - another narrative proven correct.

Specifically, the Cavs lost in 2015 and then Kyrie put them over the top in 2016.

Similarly, the 2018 Celtics would've easily made the Finals if Kyrie was healthy - Kyrie led them to a 22-4 record to start the season and was MVP for the first half of the year until he got hurt - this laid the foundation for that team.. Then Hayward returned in 2019, which stunted Tatum and Brown's growth... They saw 1-year drops across the board in 2019 (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).

Of course, the Nets were up 2-0 on Giannis in 2021 until Kyrie got hurt..

So this year proves Kyrie could've won titles in 2015 and 2021 if healthy, and he would've made the Finals in 2018.. He's a goat difference-maker and should've easily made top 75 over Lillard.

Classifying NBA finals close out games as “garbage time” is a new level of stupidity.

What about comparing 3 games in the critical part of the series to 3 games when the series is already won?

That's dumber than saying the games after a 3-0 lead is garbage time

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Thread Cliffs

For Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed a sidekick that made the Finals without him.

And if Kyrie wins the title and FMVP, then Lebron will have needed a FMVP sidekick to win... As it stands, Lebron already needed sidekicks that outplayed Dirk, Curry and Michael Jordan, I mean Ant..

Show me where Pippen outplayed an all-timer like Shaq, Barkley, Malone or Ewing - he was never expected to play at the top level and was never an elite producer or franchise player.. Can you imagine Kyrie being a 14 PPG bum outside the system??... Because that's what Pippen was - he was worse than Jeff Green in Houston just a few months after 3-peating with MJ.
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You actually need to win 4 games to win a series, not 3. Every single Finals game is critical. And the season is over afterward.

The idea that MJ (who his fans regard as the GOAT competitor and obsessed with winning) would not give effort in Games 4-6 of a Finals series and suck on purpose is utter insanity.

Damn I was sure the pressure was much lower when u lead 3-0 compare when it’s 0-0 or 3-3 .
Again winning 6 finals without ever reaching a 7 game it still not good enough while losing 3 games to win in 7 is considered better performance shrug .

I couldn't shoot threes to save my life until my 30's, but the exception was when I happened to be the best player on the floor - then I shot decently on threes - so I could go from having decent efficiency on threes against weak comp, to being not an option at all from 3-point land against guys my level or higher..

And that's what is going on with Ant and a lot of guys that seemingly have solid jumpers - Ant knows that he's the best athletic talent on the floor pretty much every night, and this fuels the confidence in his jumper - but as we've seen in the last 8 games or so, there's a level where his jumper becomes completely broke.. So I don't think he's truly a good shooter and certainly not a "knock-down" shooter.. Otoh, MJ was the goat 2-point jumpshooter that hit more jumpshots in 1987 than anyone ever hit in a season, and he also shot better on threes at today's volumes (3+ attempts).

Congrats on shooting well from 3 when playing against the under 12s D division girls team.