GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Exactly.

For their playoff careers, guys like Curry, Lebron, Kobe and KD all shoot approximately 40% in clutch-time on 3.0 attempts per game, while old MJ shot 48% on 3.6 attempts in the 97' and 98' Playoffs (the only available data).

This data has been posted previously and is publicly available on basketball reference and/or stats.nba.com

Jordan is also 9-18 on game-winners in the playoffs, so his 50% efficiency remains the same in the clutch (ice water in the viens), while everyone else's craters with the game on the line.. In Lebron's case, he's 0-7 on game-winners or tyers in the Finals (4-8 for MJ)..

So the numbers support the eye test that MJ's clutch was unique and goat.

He won a game off the 18' Warriors, while Lebron was beaten by record amount despite a far superior cast (all-star sidekick and 3x Finals veteran cast).

Secondly, Lebron's sidekicks sacrificed their best years for Bron-ball, so we shouldn't expect much from them outside of their Lebron years... Yet Kyrie still made the Finals by destroying MJ/Ant.

Thirdly, Wade taught Lebron how to win after Lebron couldn't make the Finals as a massive favorite in 09/10..

Finally, AD and Hughes taught Lebron how to make the playoffs in the West and East, respectively, so Lebron has always needed established playoff veterans to show him how to make the playoffs... Infact, Zydrunas made the playoffs with Kemp in 98', yet Lebron was lottery with all-star Zydrunas in 05'.

Apparently choked = choker.

Remember that game when Steph Curry missed 2 free throws in a row.

Obviously means he's a terrible free throw shooter.

Firstoff he didn't choke. You said you would provide proof he choked. I was like wow maybe he's right. Did jordan really choke? I was waiting to see this. Then you show a clip where some guy came up behind him that he didn't see and poked the ball out. Then the other was him throwing a pass to Pippen which Pippen didn't handle. That was proof of him choking? In a 15 year career?

The point you were trying to make was that Jordan choked. Implying that Lebron was less of a choker than Jordan, or at the very least on jordan's level of clutchness was it not?

All good. But i disagree. I think Jordan was more clutch than Lebron.

Also this was Jordan's came out of retirement year late in the season. So wasn't in playoff shape. And the team as a whole had alot of rust since they didn't play together most of the season.

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From Sports Illustrated:

The logic you use for Lebron works in reverse.

You guys ask "what did Jordan do without Pippen", or "why didn't Lebron's teammates do anything without him", except Lebron himself was lottery in both conferences until playoff veterans arrived to carry him (AD), or get him over the hump (Hughes).

And of course Wade already won without Lebron and showed him how to win, so the argument is wrong and bad anyway.

Imagine trying to blame Pippen for the bad pass from MJ. smh.

Imagine Larry Hughes's name being mentioned in this thread for anything but a joke.

In a 15 year career with two 3 peats, 6-0 in finals, 6 finals mvp's, 5 mvp regular season mvp's, and 10 scoring titles. That the only thing you can say bad about his game was he threw a bad pass once, which could have been Pippen's fault as well for not being ready for the pass and not having the right timing with Jordan becasue of rust playing together that year

But again he threw a bad pass once in a entire 15 year career with all those credentials. Sounds pretty goatish to me.

Yup, imagine if Lebron three-peated with 41 ppg and then said "I'm kinda bored... I gonna go play football now"...

The media would say it's goat for merely having the confidence, gumption, temerity and dgaf to try another sport...

aka the goat was SO great that he outgrew his own sport and decided to try something else.

Furthermore, when Lebron returns after a couple years, NO ONE would expect anything from him... Imagine how broke his jumper would be after 2 years off and hardwiring in the motions of another sport?.. No one would knock him for bricklaying because he's basically Mr. Confidence that had the temerity to try another sport after conquering his own.

Now if Lebron recovered from the bricklaying and turnover machine to three-peat AGAIN, people would appropriately call him the GOAT.

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THE NUMBERS

04' HUGHES.......... 17.6 PER... 0.088 WS/48... 1.7 OBPM... -0.7 DBPM... 19/7/4
90' PIPPEN............ 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 0.4 OBPM.... 1.4 DBPM... 16/6/5
05' HUGHES.......... 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 2.4 OBPM.... 1.9 DBPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D

Regular Season

05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5 and 2.9 spg... 1st Team Defense
93' PIPPEN....... 19.2 PER... 4.0 BPM... 0.132 WS/48... 4.7 VORP.... 19/8/6 and 2.1 spg... 1st Team Defense

Playoffs

05' HUGHES..... 16.6 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.1 OBPM... -0.3 DBPM..... 21/7/4 and 2.0 spg
93' PIPPEN....... 16.9 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.0 OBPM.... 0.8 DBPM..... 20/7/6 and 2.2 spg

^^^^ From Sports Illustrated

https://vault.si.com/vault/2005/08/15/ho...

Lebron is the guy that mentioned Hughes.

He begged for Hughes in 2005 because Hughes was achieving peak Pippen stats with 1st team defense, aka Scottie Pippen.

Accordingly, lebron didn't need to DEVELOP a pippen like jordan did because he was GIFTED a ready-made 1st team defender that averaged 22/6/5 (aka Pippen, aka Hughes)... Hughes was the guard version of Pippen and therefore a perfect fit for Lebron - this is how it was reported and viewed at that time.

Unfortunately, Lebron craters anyone that isn't an elite shooter, such as Ingram, Westbrook, Reaves, Bosh, Love, Jamison, IT, Rose, Hughes, Dinwiddie, Kuzma and many more - too many to name... He also had bad fits with Luka and Wade that caused upset losses in 11' and 25'.

This is all historical record.. Specifically, for Lebron to make his first playoffs in 2006, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a HOF coach (Mike Brown) and a player that was better than 1993 Pippen.. Ultimately, having an all-star center and acquiring a 22/6/5 all-defender is more help than MJ ever had.

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THE NUMBERS

04' HUGHES.......... 17.6 PER... 0.088 WS/48... 1.7 OBPM... -0.7 DBPM... 19/7/4
90' PIPPEN............ 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 0.4 OBPM.... 1.4 DBPM... 16/6/5
05' HUGHES.......... 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 2.4 OBPM.... 1.9 DBPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D

Regular Season

05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5 and 2.9 spg... 1st Team Defense
93' PIPPEN....... 19.2 PER... 4.0 BPM... 0.132 WS/48... 4.7 VORP.... 19/8/6 and 2.1 spg... 1st Team Defense

Playoffs

05' HUGHES..... 16.6 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.1 OBPM... -0.3 DBPM..... 21/7/4 and 2.0 spg
93' PIPPEN....... 16.9 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.0 OBPM.... 0.8 DBPM..... 20/7/6 and 2.2 spg

^^^^ From Sports Illustrated

https://vault.si.com/vault/2005/08/15/ho...

^^^ Hughes was considered a "massive acquisition".

Accordingly, lebron didn't need to DEVELOP a pippen like jordan did because he was GIFTED a ready-made 1st team defender that averaged 22/6/5... Hughes was the guard version of Pippen and therefore a perfect fit for Lebron - this is how it was reported and viewed at that time.

Unfortunately, Lebron craters anyone that isn't an elite shooter, such as Ingram, Westbrook, Reaves, Bosh, Love, Jamison, IT, Rose, Hughes, Dinwiddie, Kuzma and many more - too many to name... He also had bad fits with Luka and Wade that caused upset losses in 11' and 25'.

Ultimately, for Lebron to make his first playoffs in 2006, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a HOF coach (Mike Brown) and a player that was better than 93' Pippen.. Having an all-star center and acquiring a 22/6/5 all-defender is more help than MJ ever had.

* SGA is the only high-scoring primary ballhandler that relies on elite mid-range volume and efficiency.. Guys like Luka, Harden, Lebron, Westbrook, etc lack elite jumpshooting volume & efficiency (from 3 or 2).

* When we look at how Hughes played alongside Lebron, it's exactly how Pippen cratered in Houston... Both cratered to 14 on 40%.

Spurs in 5

I like how we just cherry pick the only Hughes/Pippen seasons that suit the narrative, it's not even consistent in the post.

Didn't seem to crater the shooting of Kennard, Hachimura, Korver, Ingram, etc. lol Luka let's talk about George Gervin again.

Wemby is so much better than MJ at the same time of their careers. And he actually makes people better.

MJ needs great players around him, otherwise he's can't lead his team to success.

All due respect, but not true on all three of your points. Especially that Wemby is so much better at the same time of their careers.

Jordan's 3rd year averaged alot more points, assists, and steals than Wemby. Wemby only better at blocks even though Jordan was considered a great defender and had alot of blocks himself. But Wemby clearly better there. Jordan won the scoring title. Had set all kinds of records already. Jordan only lost the mvp because they gave it to magic who averaged way less points per game. In ability Jordan was considered the way better player over Magic even in only his 3rd year.

Jordan having more than double the assists would suggest he made his teammates better than Wemby did.

Jordan won 6 titles with the least amount of superstars, and talent in general, around him compared to what other great players got to play with when they won their titles. In fact Jordan only had one perennial all star on his team to play with.

I love Wemby. He's great. Jokic, Wemby, and Steph are my current favorite players. But saying Wemby is SO MUCH BETTER than mj at the same time of their careers is completely false. Wemby has a huge ceiling to have a chance to be the goat someday. He'd need 7 titles, at least 6, up his points average, and or assists average. But until then Jordan remains the goat.

Three-point percentage

18' Ingram..... 39%
19' Ingram..... 33% <--- alongside Lebron
20' Ingram..... 39%

Ingram and Kuzma also saw drops alongside Lebron in PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP and APG.

Again, only elite shooters don't decline alongside Lebron, such as Korver, Kennard, Mo or Kyrie.. Otherwise, guys like Hughes, Ingram, Pippen, Westbrook, Bosh, Love and many more cratered.. Luka and Wade also had bad fits, which caused massive upset loss in 11' and 25'.

So as you can see, Lebron's skillset of high-scoring primary ballhandling (ball-dominance) is simply BAD at chemistry... This is because everyone becomes spot-up shooter (they see their assists decline and their assisted rate increase).

Rookie Jordan led the Bulls in assists while Woolridge, Oakley and Paxson achieved career highs in PPG.

Pippen, Grant and BJ also grew by leaps and bounds alongside Jordan and the reality is that ONLY JORDAN had to build single-digit rookies to win titles.. Let that sink in... Everyone else in history got ready-made stars.. The exception is Curry - Curry had to build bums into champions too

Ingram shot 32.7 at 24yr old from 3, there's a **** ton of variance in 3p%. He's also only played >65 games 2 times in his career.

For ****'s sake quit looking at 1 year samples to base everything and cherry-picked to death. Players get better through their early 20s he was ****ing traded at 21.

Hughes had entered his prime alongside Arenas before joining Lebron and cratering.

And Ingram makes it obvious because he was growing and then had a 1-year drop ACROSS THE BOARD alongside Lebron - PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48... It's an obvious 1-year drop and then he resumes his growth after leaving Lebron.

Other teammate destructions include Kuzma, Bosh, Love, Westbrook, Hughes, Rose, Jamison, Reaves and tons more .. Again, the only guys that DON'T crater are elite shooters like Korver, Kennard, Mo or Kyrie...

Even guys like Luka and Wade had horrific fits that produced major upset losses in 11' and 25'..

It's clear that Lebron is simply BAD at chemistry because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter (he decreases their assists and increases their assisted rate).. He's the only guy with a long list of historic bad fits (I guess Westbrook has a long list too).

^^^ irrefutable proof that not only did Jordan make teammates better, but he did so better than anyone in history, aka he's the only guy that had to build single-digit rookies to win titles... Jordan built single-digit rookies into his 2nd, 3rd and 4th options - only Jordan did that