I believe men to be the oppressed in American society.
I am wondering if violence against women in the western world is a result of opression and frustration from men who are not treated with respect but are made to work much harder and more difficult jobs than anyone else.
I have been considering the number of men incarcerated(and for how long), I think of the number of men killed in wars and I think about the number of men who are homeless(compared to women) and lastly I think about male suicide rates (due to lack of perceived value by society)
I am not saying the violence against women is acceptable or should be tolerated.
I am saying let’s look at how society treats men and women and let’s see if it’s fair.
Feminism is equality for the sexes. Let’s talk about the inequalities men face
Not sure how to quantify the abuses women face from men and vice versa
Let’s focus on frustration first. Frustration arises in response to a rejection / hostility toward your desires. The level of frustration you will feel is associated with the amount of entitlement you identify with. The amount of entitlement you identify with is associated with how you view the self.
Is the self just another being of this world? If so, why should you feel any sense of entitlement to what you want? Does the self have a soul with entitlements and promises written on it? If
It seems like you’re saying the physical desires aren’t that important
I believe it is a universal truth that there is a type of pain or suffering with un-fulfilled desire. You can say we have a deep desire to have our desires fulfilled, not only in the immediate but across time. In this way, this deep desire for fulfillment is more important than a desire to get laid.
I would go a step further and say, at the level of the soul, this desire for fulfillment is actually more than a desire; it’s an entitlement. Associated with the unfulfilled entitlement is the desire for justice.
The world is unjust because it denies the self + soul what it is entitled to. This causes lasting frustration.
My overall warning is this: if you extract the desire for justice out of the story of the soul, then you will get nowhere. There is no meaningful justice in the reality of this world, except through the deeper story.
I dont have any problem acknowledging how human consciousness and socialization allows humans to transcend animal desires. There is plenty of examples of behavior that supports this idea, such as our rituals surrounding death*
However, inter-species violence being predominately male oriented is certainly not an example of dysfunctional socialization disrupting the natural state. Quite the opposite. This behavioral difference is very consistent across the mammalian world, and very linked to testosterone levels at the experimental level.
Could a human society possibly be socialized to a point where this sex based discrepancy is mitigated, including psychological conditioning like Craig is recommending? I suppose it is possibly, but seems unlikely IMO.
*Like most examples you could think of, there are rare exceptions of death rituals in higher cognitive functioning mammals such as elephants
In conclusion, feelings of frustration, oppression, and injustice are deeply real. But understand the game you are participating in, and if you are going to play, either play to win or don’t bother at all.
Adding to this, the vast majority of men have resigned themselves to being non-factors in the big picture of life, completely cut off from greatness.
If this is you, then you are better off not even attending to your feelings of frustration and injustice much at all. You will have basically no chance to make any meaningful impact. Suppression and denial are your better options - start forming the habit now. I mean this in all sincerity.
How 'bout Christ's teachings instead of craig's? next
Spoiler
I'd contest that in western countries, men experience a much lower quality of life and more suffering than women, on average. Statistically but almost every metric by which you could measure human suffering, this is true. But is this because of "oppression" or biology coupled with economic and technological development rendering the male skillset just less fundamentally useful than it used to be while making the typical female skillset more useful?
I don't think anything can really be done to "fix" this situation without breaking something else. We can't return to the days of patriarchy. It wouldn't work in 2024 and it probably wouldn't even produce desirable results anyway. It is what it is... I guess just acknowledge it and stop gaslighting men into believing they are some sort of privileged oppressor class and move on with our lives...
what exactly do men suffer or lower quality life that isn't brought on by themselves and their own actions.
what exactly do men suffer or lower quality life that isn't brought on by themselves and their own actions.
That's an interesting philosophical question. Do you "bring suicide upon yourself?" Opiate addiction? Unemployment? Longer incarceration sentences? Lower educational success on average? Presumption of default guilt? Lower life expectancy? Homelessness? Having more badly affected psychology and life outcomes as a result of growing up in a fatherless home?
In some cases, arguably yes. And in an ideal world, we could hold each individual responsible for these problems. I don't think (just my opinion) you can fix these problems with sweeping government policy, but at the very least we can have some compassion for men with these problems.
People like to assume problems females face are the fault of society at large, but problems that disproportionately affect men are their own fault.
I think its very possible that women are still more "oppressed" overall but are also likely to live happier, healthier, and longer lives than men on average. Because men and women are biologically different and our world has changed a lot and men are just less inherently valuable to society and the economy. Part of this is just straight up immutable.
If you take away partner violence against women then mEn have it worse
That's an interesting philosophical question. Do you "bring suicide upon yourself?" Opiate addiction? Unemployment? Longer incarceration sentences? Lower educational success on average? Presumption of default guilt? Lower life expectancy? Homelessness? Having more badly affected psychology and life outcomes as a result of growing up in a fatherless home?
In some cases, arguably yes. And in an ideal world, we could hold each individual responsible for these problems. I don't think (just my opinio
-in regards to suicide, im curious the number of suicides when you take out suicide by firearm. are men killing themselves more, or do they just have over double the number of firearms available. this very well could be a society problem in the nature of just having better gun control laws.
-are you arguing that men are predisposed to addiction more so than women?
-are men less intelligent/studious than women by nature?
-the incarceration statistics that i've found are all federal and show that when females commit crimes that go against natural gender roles they actually end up with longer sentences than men for the same crimes. i'd be interested to see state statistics, since those are actually way more relevant to any crime data.
-i dont know what "presumption of default guilt" means. i'm assuming you think it's that the court of public opinion thinks negatively on men accused of abuse/sexual assault?
-i dont know enough about life expectancy statistics but i've never thought i was "oppressed" because i had a slightly higher chance of heart disease. although i've never considered it much.
-homelessness IS a society problem.
-who creates "fatherless" homes if not MEN?
as much as i hate to sound like i'm siding with op - which i'm not
i was once out with a woman who was angry at me for something stupid i don't even recall, like a genuine nothing burger like i'd slept with someone she despised years prior (that's not it i genuinely don't even recall what it was but it was something at that level of meaningless
she started screaming and yelling at me in a very public venue, i calmly spoke with her trying to deescalate - she just got angrier
i got up to leave and she started hitting me and screaming
the general reaction by the many people witnessing this was laughter and general support for the woman because clearly i must deserve it
i'm very grateful to this day that there isn't a video of it online titled "look at this loser get yelled at by a girl" as there are many of those and it's a very big category that draws a lot of views
100% if i were yelling at her and hit her as she walked away there's no chance everyone watching it would be snickering
ignore the earlier part of this video and watch how nobody is batting an eye to this woman yelling at her bf on the plane
the stewardess only asked her to stop because they are on a plane and you can't yell there - the crowd reacts to her hitting him because again, it's on a plane
take this situation, move it to central park and instead of a stewardess coming in to end it, it just goes on and on and and people film/snicker/ignore
-in regards to suicide, im curious the number of suicides when you take out suicide by firearm. are men killing themselves more, or do they just have over double the number of firearms available. this very well could be a society problem in the nature of just having better gun control laws.
-are you arguing that men are predisposed to addiction more so than women?
-are men less intelligent/studious than women by nature?
-the incarceration statistics that i've found are all federal and show that w
Okay. I'm going to treat you as if you are posting in good faith as you've been civil thusfar. Some of these questions you've posed are almost trivially obvious to me, but we probably have been consuming very different information for a decade and these may not be obvious to you. I am answering as if you want to know the answers to these questions authentically and this isn't some way of being combative.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co... It's very consistent that male suicide rates greatly outpace female suicide rates even in countries where gun ownership rates are very low. To what extent could gun control reform reduce this discrepancy? Interesting question.
2. https://www.addictioncenter.com/addictio... This was literally the first result google searching. Does this indicate oppression? Not necessarily. Vulnerability? Yes. Does one bring addiction upon one's self? Are there some factors in society that can make people with genetic predispositions to addiction to actually develop addictions? yes. I'd argue the widespread prescription opiates that was happening in the 90s up to the mid 2010s would be a good example of that. I don't live in the United States and pay much less attention to what's going on there, so I'm not sure whether or how much progress has been made on this.
3. Male brains do develop considerably later than women's brains and there is evidence to suggest that "academically red-shirting" boys might close the gap to some degree. Being in school as a child does mean a certain amount of sitting down and compliant listening, which is very hard for young boys who's pre-frontal cortexes are not developing at the same speed as their female peers. You might argue there are social conditioning aspects to this with gender roles, but at least some portion of it is literally neurological. Short introduction to the education gap here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXsOlAYv...
4. A cursory glance here seems to suggest the opposite conclusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing....
I have not read this full text but I do know it's often cited in discussion of gender based sentencing disparity: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?...
5.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co... I'd agree with your proposition that this does not indicate "oppression", however it does support a simpler statement such as "men have it worse/more suffering/harder and shorter lives". Do they bring it upon themselves? Partially, but to some extent this is biological as well.x
6. It's a societal problem that affects men more than women. I don't have much to say about it; whether or not someone "chooses" to be homeless is another matter entirely. I personally will refrain from any conclusions on this.
7. My home was almost* fatherless and it was because my mother divorced my father and he didn't want to divorce and then the law gave her custody by default. I don't know exactly how common my own situation is and I don't think the rhetorical tactic redpill commentators use of "Divorce is initiated by women 70% of the time" is an intellectually honest argument. Divorce could be initiated by a woman when the man was clearly the one at fault or even the one who wanted things to end more.
That said, with some basic understanding of human psychology, if divorce were still accessible but less financially profitable for women, it would probably happen less. Whether or not this represents an improvement in society is not a simple discussion and clearly has trade-offs. It is not always the case that a man knocks up a woman then takes off; women do sometimes not want anything to do with the father of their children. Growing up in an area with large latin/black populations makes this almost trivially obvious (I am latin/black/white mixed).
*I did still see my dad at least ~15-20 times per year, but many of my friends who were similarly from low income divorced families did not have this luxury.
All of that said, I will now give my personal view: I don't think any of the above are evidence of "oppression". The idea of "oppression", at least in my definition, deals with explicit codified legal rights being somehow lesser or diminished compared to a more favored group. Can a group be "oppressed" and also live a much better/easier/more prosperous life on average than another group who is not oppressed under my working definition? The answer is a resounding "yes". Asian Americans are widely discriminated against in university admissions, which is pretty damn close to having fewer codified legal rights. Jewish people in various times in history in various countries had less legal rights than non-Jews and still lead more prosperous lives. I am a foreigner in China. I will forever be an "expat" rather than an immigrant despite the fact that I speak Chinese, am largely culturally integrated, work for an institution owned by the Chinese government and Chinese taxpayers pay my salary, and may very well live here my entire life. I have less legal rights than a local Chinese in many ways as explicitly written in law. But despite this "oppression", I and pretty much every other western foreigner live a much easier life with less suffering than a local who technically has more legal privileges and rights.
Are the 2 statements that "women are oppressed" and "men have more difficult and suffering-laden lives than women" necessarily contradictory? In this case, no not really. It entirely depends on how you define oppression.
There is very clearly a favorable bias toward females/women in human societies broadly, even if this is not legally encoded. https://www.bitchute.com/video/fx-3lK_6Z... At least some of this bias is likely the result of millions of years of mammalian evolution and can't be simply "educated" away or legislated away. It may make some people very uncomfortable, but racism is similar; this is an evolutionarily based behaviour that was very advantageous (for replicating one's genes) in the ancestral environment, and it's very difficult for us to erase certain strong evolutionarily based behaviours and mindsets in human beings.
You might argue that the entire purpose of civilization and society is for human beings to cooperatively agree to restrain the evolutionary impulses that are good for replicating genes but bad for a collective (murder, rape, genocide, violent crime, etc). But we can never do this perfectly, and things like pro-female implicit bias might be one of those evolved behaviours that we have no hope of erasing as a collective, even if some individuals manage to restrain it to some degree.
Cliffnotes: Men suffer more. They always have and always will. There is probably nothing we can really do about this. This does not contradict the idea of women being oppressed.
-in regards to suicide, im curious the number of suicides when you take out suicide by firearm. are men killing themselves more, or do they just have over double the number of firearms available. this very well could be a society problem in the nature of just having better gun control laws.
-are you arguing that men are predisposed to addiction more so than women?
-are men less intelligent/studious than women by nature?
-the incarceration statistics that i've found are all federal and show that w
Seriously? You don't know of any women who ditched their men for a not particularly good reason, or who planned to have children and raise them without a man?
Seriously? You don't know of any women who ditched their men for a not particularly good reason, or who planned to have children and raise them without a man?
co-parenting is a thing, if fathers have the desire they can be in the childs life if they want to. the redpilled "court won't allow me to see my child and i didn't do anything wrong" is rarer than the internet would have you believe.
co-parenting is a thing, if fathers have the desire they can be in the childs life if they want to. the redpilled "court won't allow me to see my child and i didn't do anything wrong" is rarer than the internet would have you believe.
I would still consider it a 'fatherless home' even if there was some visitation. The man isn't living in the same home.
And in the second case I mentioned, the man may not even know he is a father, or reasonably stays out of the child's life on request of the mother.
Okay. I'm going to treat you as if you are posting in good faith as you've been civil thusfar. Some of these questions you've posed are almost trivially obvious to me, but we probably have been consuming very different information for a decade and these may not be obvious to you. I am answering as if you want to know the answers to these questions authentically and this isn't some way of being combative.
1. i simply think we don't know enough about suicide to use it in an argument like this as a talking point. i'm also only talking about US because that's where i have the strongest knowledge base. other countries have different societal pressures on suicide, like for instance South Korea's suicide rates are very high but that is reportedly because in korean society the elderly are committing suicide at a much higher rate than elsewhere to not be a burden on their loved ones.
but to flush out my gun control assertion. firearms are over half of all suicides in the US(53%). in 2020(which are just the numbers i quickly found)- 21,180 men(58% of the total) committed suicide with a firearm compared to 3,112(33%) women. the states with the highest amount of per capita gun suicides were all red states with lax gun control, and the states with the fewest were all blue states with stricter gun laws. and overall rural areas have higher suicide rates than
2. the link you sent says that females are more likely to relapse and that young girls are more likely than young boys to misuse opioids. also that men are more likely to abuse due to peer pressure. (most likely from other men). that to me doesn't show that men are more predisposed towards addiction.
3. what if any effect does a brain development timeline have on eventual educational outcomes? is the argument that boys are washing out of education early due to genetic factors and unable to go back to school? anecdotally i understand the idea, i probably wouldn't have succeeded in lawschool right after i got out of university due to not being mature enough, but that was largely solved by working for a year or two and going later into my mid 20's rather than early 20's.
4. federal crime statistics data is not great for this kind of stuff. in the US there are 40x as many charges filed in state courts as there are in federal courts, as well as a lot of federal charges being hand picked rather than a random sampling.
7. divorce redpiling is becoming more popular in the right wing derposphere in the US with several commentators advocating for removing no fault divorce thus trapping women in marriages. courts are unlikely to bar visitation from fathers that want to be in the childs life. a father being there for a child is often more than just being present. i dont want to discount anyone's individual experience, but is a life where your parents are somewhat more present but hate each other better than where they are less present? idk. i dont do family law for these reasons.
I would still consider it a 'fatherless home' even if there was some visitation. The man isn't living in the same home.
And in the second case I mentioned, the man may not even know he is a father, or reasonably stays out of the child's life on request of the mother.
i kinda mentioned this in the other post. but in your opinion is forcing the mother into staying in a relationship a better outcome for the child?
when it comes to educational outcomes, i think we have to realize that men simply value higher education less and less these days. particularly those young men who have fallen victim to idiotic conservative internet spew.
when it comes to educational outcomes, i think we have to realize that men simply value higher education less and less these days. particularly those young men who have fallen victim to idiotic conservative internet spew.
I think high levels of testosterone make it more difficult to focus on studying. The only reason men were more successful academically in the past was because of discrimination and cultural pressures against women seeking higher education. Now that most of that is absent, women are naturally becoming more successful in higher education.
A woman did a more difficult job bringing you into this world than anything you’ll ever do in your life. That goes for all of you, btw. ♥👍
